Who got off track?

[Winstonm]

[hv=d=w&v=n&n=s986hj65daj42ca63&w=skj73hq87dk10653c4&e=sq1054h10942dq9cqj5&s=sa2hak3d87ck109872]399|300|Scoring: IMP

P P P 1♣

P 1♦ P 2♣

P P P

 

North argued that NV there was no reason to stretch to game; South countered that in 4th seat the 1C-2C auction had to show a top end hand and North should bid 3C. North continued that the South hand should be opened 1N. South contended that in another seat this would be true but there was no reason to wrong side the NT in 4th seat - the 4th seat opening of a minor had to have some kind of game aspirations else why bid at all?

 

Which side are you on? Who gets to eat crow here?[/hv]

[mike777]

South should clearly open 1nt 14-16 or 15-17.

North should clearly raise to 3clubs, just bid games at IMPs! Even NV games.

[mr1303]

Maybe the South hand should rebid 3C?

 

Not sure what North should do after this. I don't like 1NT by S, or do I really like a raise to 3C by North, since game looks a long way away, and his majors don't really inspire looking for game

[david_c]

I'd probably end up in 2♣ as well. But I think North is closer to a 3♣ bid than South is: from South's point of view the club suit is relatively poor, but from North's point of view it's likely to be running.

 

I really dislike the idea of opening 1NT.

[dogsbreath]

hi

North has 3 trumps and 2 Aces ..a raise to 3 Clubs should be completely automatic..

Rgds Dog

[Guest Jlall]

I don't agree with either of them :(

 

I don't think 1C then 2C shows top end of the bid. with KJx x KJx KJxxxx you would just have a normal opener. This is not "top end" by any means. Opening doesn't show game aspirations, it says that we are more likely than not to go plus given my hand.

 

I also do not agree that NV there is no reason to "stretch" for game. Even NV you get a bonus for bidding game, and you still want to be in good (or slightly less than good) games.

 

I think saying one SHOULD open 1N is wrong. That's a style thing. I actually like a 1N opener, obviously it is right on playing strength and I don't mind a 6 card minor. This certainly is a minority view though, and I would never fault a partner who bid 1C-2C.

 

That being said, since partner will ALWAYS have a 6 card suit for this bid (over 1D there are no awkward shapes) north failed to recognize the value of his aces and 3rd club. He has the type of hand where you could just easily have 9 runners. A perfect example would be the south hand MINUS the king of hearts. Now game is very good, and its 11 opp 10. Aces gain a lot of value in trick based 3Ns (not to be confused with balanced hand 3Ns). I give north the blame.

[mikeh]

North has an easy 3♣ raise. Virtually textbook. The idea of being a little conservative at non-vul is only that: be a (very) little bit on the conservative side.

 

NV games are (essentially) a 50-50 proposition: all the more so when the auction suggests that the opps are not about to double. And, remember, that defence is the toughest part of the game, so many bad contracts get past even good defenders.

 

It is easy to picture 13 counts which have 9 top tricks in notrump. OTOH it is very difficult to construct hands on which 3♣ has no play.

 

If you want to open 1N as south, be my guest, but please don't ask to play with me. It is a needless distortion. The only reason North suggested it in the post-mortem was in an attempt to deflect blame. I know that a lot of posters here like to distort their 1N opener's but I think that that is losing bridge witha good partner.

[cherdano]

North has 3 trumps and 2 Aces ..a raise to 3 Clubs should be completely automatic..

Exactly my thoughts, although 2NT or 3NT might be fine :(

 

Saying that the South hand should be opened 1♣ seems non-sense to me. This is a very suit oriented hand in my opinion. While 1NT is certainly an option, and I wouldn't disagree if someone did it, a claim that 1♣ is wrong should be left to those who know it all and don't accept that there are different successful styles in bridge.

 

Arend

[whereagles]

Bidding seems fine to me. North might have streched to bid 3C, South might have streched to bid 3C or open 1NT. Bridge is a guessing game!

[Double !]

ALERT:

"Bridge is a Partnership Game"

 

I see so many bidding questions on this forum that, imo, involve taking views or master-minding instead of bidding one's values. Regardless of my choice of opening bid, I expect my P to show support and invitational values when he/she has them. I claim the right to re-assess my hand in view of the bidding. (I wouldn't have been displeased had P initially responded 1NT.) To not bid 3 clubs with the north hand is a lie imo. It's a unilateral decision, a failure to communicate the value of your hand to partner, and an action that doesn't permit partner to be part of the decision-making process regarding where the hand should ultimately play.

[cherdano]

Bidding seems fine to me. North might have streched to bid 3C, South might have streched to bid 3C or open 1NT. Bridge is a guessing game!

If I bid 3♣ with the North hand, I would be worried about partner playing me for less than that, not more!

 

Arend

[Winstonm]

ALERT:

"Bridge is a Partnership Game"

 

I see so many bidding questions on this forum that, imo, involve taking views or master-minding instead of bidding one's values.      Regardless of my choice of opening bid, I expect my P to show support and invitational values when he/she has them.  I claim the right to re-assess my hand in view of the bidding.  (I wouldn't have been displeased had P initially responded 1NT.)  To not bid 3 clubs with the north hand is a lie imo.  It's a unilateral decision, a failure to communicate the value of your hand to partner, and an action that doesn't permit partner to be part of the decision-making process regarding where the hand should ultimately play.

I agree strongly with your assessment - obviously I held the South hand. I simply don't see any benefit to passing 2C when game might be on - the rare day in May when 3C is down 1 and 2C makes on the nose will never compensate for missed games.

 

I would never fault anyone who opens my hand with 1N and thought of doing so myself; the factor that dissuaded me was the lack of tenaces to protect - if partner held something like, Jxx, xxx, Kxxx, AQx then he should be playing the NT contract.

 

Winston

[Guest Jlall]

if partner held something like, Jxx, xxx, Kxxx, AQx then he should be playing the NT contract.

 

Winston

Not sure how you will achieve that after 1C-1D-2C-3C you will prob just bid 3N?

[Winstonm]

JLall: I don't think 1C then 2C shows top end of the bid. with KJx x KJx KJxxxx you would just have a normal opener. This is not "top end" by any means. Opening doesn't show game aspirations, it says that we are more likely than not to go plus given my hand.

 

This is certainly a reasonable point - however, I'm not so certain that an aceless minor suit 12 count should be opened in passout seat. For the hand to be of much value partner needs either a decent spade suit (and he didn't open 2S) or a near opener himself with a good club fit.

 

Perhaps I misstated what I meant - the auction of:

P-P-P-1C

P-1D-P-2C

 

IMO should show full values - a goodish hand not necessarily in HCP but if not then certainly in playing strength: Axx, x, xxx, AKJxxx.

 

Seems to me that anything much less than this simply is allowing the opponents' to find their major suit partscore or pushing us to an unmakeable level. But then, I've never won a world championship, so what do I know? ;)

 

Winston

[Winstonm]

if partner held something like, Jxx, xxx, Kxxx, AQx then he should be playing the NT contract.

 

Winston

Not sure how you will achieve that after 1C-1D-2C-3C you will prob just bid 3N?

This is a good question and one pard and I talked about in length - do you now make an "asking-type" bid of 3D or the "telling bid" of 3H? We finally decided on the "telling type". In this auction I would have bid 3H, denying a diamond stopper and inferring both majors stopped - not perfect but would perhaps get the job done.

 

Winston

[Guest Jlall]

If partner has bid diamonds it doesn't make much sense to worry about diamond stoppers. Even if partner has some holding like xxxx, they need to lead a diamond and they need to be 5-2 and we need 11 runners to make 5C (which is likely if his diamonds are that weak). You might want to discuss the merits of bidding a xxxx suit in that case anyways ;). It seems like you just help them with their lead by bidding 3H. BTW, why does 3H imply a spade stopper? With xx Axx x AKQJxxx wouldn't you bid this way? If so then to ask for a spade stopper pard still needs to bid 3S, and you will still end up being the one playing 3N.

[pbleighton]

"To not bid 3 clubs with the north hand is a lie imo. It's a unilateral decision, a failure to communicate the value of your hand to partner, and an action that doesn't permit partner to be part of the decision-making process regarding where the hand should ultimately play."

 

Agree completely.

 

As to opening 1NT - as someone else said, it's a style thing. OK either way.

 

Peter

[Fluffy]

seems like perfect fitting 24, and even then game is not foolproof.

[whereagles]

ALERT: "Bridge is a Partnership Game"

 

I see so many bidding questions on this forum that, imo, involve taking views or master-minding instead of bidding one's values.

Having a dialogue is the idea. But unfortunately it's not that simple. Sometimes one of the players has a borderline hand and has to take a decision as to whether underbid slightly or overbid slightly. This is what I mean by "guessing".

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

North has a courtesy raise to 3C, which is,

what he should simply do, ... and if does not

do it, for what ever reasons ( altough I dont see

any valid reason for not doing it, a opening bid

in 4 hand is not crap), he should shut up not

continue argueing.

This does not mean, that you will reach game, but

North took a view, he gets the praise, if he is right,

he should therefore take the blame, if he was wrong.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Winstonm]

Aces and a decent-to-good 9 card minor fit conbine to be hard to beat. Case in point again tonight where we held:

 

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=sa942h9863da103c64&s=s103hadkj9864cak109]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

I opened 1D and pard bid 1S. I bid 2C and he preferred back to 2D. I gave myself a raise to 3D and he bid 3N and we rattled off 10 tricks.

 

This is another hand for discussion; my view is even opposite as little as Qxx of diamonds my hand will produce 8 tricks - hence the self raise. High cards and such are nice, but we talk about 9 and 10 trick contracts, not 25-26 point contracts. IMO this hand has enough potential source of tricks to try for game.

 

Any thoughts on this one?

 

Winston

[helene_t]

Not sure how you will achieve that after 1C-1D-2C-3C you will prob just bid 3N?

1♣-1♦

2♣-3♣

3♥-3♠* asks for spades stopper

3NT

 

or, assuming that 1♦ allready "promised" a diamond stopper,

1♣-1♦

2♣-3♣

3NT

 

But it isn't such a marvelaous 3NT, if spades break 5-3 you'll probably go down and there could be a problem with diamonds as well.

[Guest Jlall]

Yes the point was you cannot "rightside" the NT opposite the example hand partner gave. In both of your auctions you ended up as declarer anyways.

 

I don't agree that it isn't a very good 3N. Spades may be 5-3 but clubs may come in too. You can pickup 2-2 clubs (not QJ on left) or stiff honor on your left. Even if they don't run immediately, you have chances on 4-4 spades or a non spade lead.

 

Winston, your 2C then 3D sequence seems textbook. Prime 6-4s have lots of potential.

[reisig]

I'm confused. Are people suggesting that North should Pass 2♣? Is that a "real" option here? Game or no game ..you must raise.

[helene_t]

I don't agree that it isn't a very good 3N. Spades may be 5-3 but clubs may come in too. You can pickup 2-2 clubs (not QJ on left) or stiff honor on your left. Even if they don't run immediately, you have chances on 4-4 spades or a non spade lead.

You're right, my mistake.