Poland 1N overcall

[kolay]

my first post here :D

 

I heard a convention called Poland 1N overcall(in chinese),

(1♣)1N means 5+D with a 4 cards major,8-15 HCP

(1♦)1N means 5+C with a 4 cards major,8-15 HCP

(1♥)1N means 4 cards ♠ with a 5+ m, 8-15HCP

(1♠)1N means 4 cards ♥ with a 5+ m, 8-15HCP

 

do any one have idea about the complete convention, and how to against it?

 

thanks a lot

[han]

Welcome to the forum!

 

It's often called "Polish 1NT" and also "raptor". Several posters here like to play it so I'm sure that there will be some enthousiastic reactions. I have played it for a while, and I don't like it. Proponents of Polish 1NT will tell you that it is not a good idea to overcall 1NT naturally, too dangerous they say, you will go for large numbers. Nonsense in my opinion. Far too dangerous to pass with such hands, you will miss many good games. Frequently doubling with balanced hands (especially with xx in an unbid major) is also not attractive.

 

When you do play raptor and it does come up it usually works quite well. These hands are tough to bid using standard methods, nobody likes to overcall in a minor with a side 4-card major. Overcalling in the major is possible when it is a strong suit, but often the hand is not suitable.

 

I'll let the proponents of the convention tell you about their favorite follow-ups and the best defense. I have one advice when playing against pairs that play this: open light :D.

[Guest Jlall]

edit.

[Walddk]

I can't comment on the merit of Raptor, since I never played it, but those of you who watched our vugraph broadcast from Poland yesterday will have noticed that things go horribly wrong when one player overcalls a natural 1NT after a 1♠ opening, and his partner thinks it's Raptor (which it was according to their agreement). They landed in an inelegant 2♥ when 3NT was cold.

 

You can't blame that on the convention of course. It just goes to show that the more you add to your cc, the more there is to forget.

 

Roland

[kolay]

thanks for replies,

look forward the follow-up :D

 

another question, is Raptor a Brown sticker convention?

[MarceldB]

another question, is Raptor a Brown sticker convention?

No because an anchor suit is known.

Either the other Major if a Major was the opening bid, or the other minor if a minor was the opening bid.

[Chamaco]

Welcome to the forum!

 

It's often called "Polish 1NT" and also "raptor". Several posters here like to play it so I'm sure that there will be some enthousiastic reactions. I have played it for a while, and I don't like it. Proponents of Polish 1NT will tell you that it is not a good idea to overcall 1NT naturally, too dangerous they say, you will go for large numbers. Nonsense in my opinion. Far too dangerous to pass with such hands, you will miss many good games. Frequently doubling with balanced hands (especially with xx in an unbid major) is also not attractive.

 

When you do play raptor and it does come up it usually works quite well. These hands are tough to bid using standard methods, nobody likes to overcall in a minor with a side 4-card major. Overcalling in the major is possible when it is a strong suit, but often the hand is not suitable.

 

I'll let the proponents of the convention tell you about their favorite follow-ups and the best defense. I have one advice when playing against pairs that play this: open light :).

I have to disagree with Han's evaluation here :-)

 

1. 10-15 hcp 4M+5m hands have a frequency slightly higher than natural strong NT overcalls (I used to have a reference about this, but it was documented somewhere, not my own evaluation);

 

2. everytime the 4M 5m comes up, being able to use Raptor is best e.g.

..... -no offshape t/o dbl,

......-no 4 card opercall in the major,

......- no 2m overcall with side major,

......- no equal level conversion, which would e a pain if opps bounce high

This is no surprise I thinkm,, since that's what the convention was designed for :-)

 

3. agree that SOME problems MIGHT arise when you do have the strong NT hand.

In these case, however:

.... a. it is not ALWAYS advantageous to stick in with natural 1NT overcall; sometimes opps catch you for a phone number; even if the frequency for this is not that high, the amount of loss is bad enough to make it important at IMPS; Matchpoints is another ballgame, I'll admit;

.... b. quite a few times you can manage things with a double followed by a NT bid. True, sometimes it does not work well, but this happens just a few times.

.... c. Moreover, if there are strong players who play power doubles with 15+, whiy not double with good 15/16+ and a strong NT hand ?

 

To summarize: when the right hand for Raptor arises, the use of Raptor is a no-loss choice; when the strong NT arise, the inability of overcalling naturally, sometimes is a loss, but sometimes avoids a loss.

 

So in the long term we get a sure plus on the 5m4M hands, and an unclear outcome in the strong NT hands.

[Guest Jlall]

I think giving up the natural 1N is a big big loss. You have a lot of balanced hand types to deal with which gets very difficult.

[Gerben42]

I live and die by this convention. It's great!

I have excellent results when it comes up, which is frequently, and few bad results on the hands that would have overcalled a natural strong 1NT.

 

I don't understand why the Polish guy forgot it. If you play it is comes up like every session.

 

Corollary 1: If partner overcalls a minor, he doesn't have a 4-card major unless he is strong enough to reverse in it.

 

Corollary 2: No more trouble with Equal Level Conversion

 

Follow-up:

After 1Major opening bid and 1NT: 2 of either minor is pass or correct, 2 of their major is an asking bid, 2NT is forcing with support in our major.

 

After 1Minor opening bid and 1NT: 2 of their minor asks for the major, 2 of a major is an independent suit, 2NT is again forcing with support, now for our minor.

[mike777]

Watched perhaps 20 hands in the Polish vs Polish match. Appeared they were playing some systems that are rarely played in USA but perhaps much more common in Europe.

 

Again it seems they forget what they are playing on some auctions, on others 5-5 suited openers on CC agreements become 5-4 at the table on about 3 or 4 hands out of 20. A couple of other hands simple invite sequences get passed out without an invite.

Perhaps this was due to exhaustion or nerves at the table.

 

Watching these Vugraphs one wonders what the real issue is here and if it is making ethical or ZT problems at the table in real life.

[Flame]

Just saw a link to raptor today.

http://biomass.to/mycroft/bridge/Raptor1NT.html

[kolay]

I also see a link about raptor

raptor 1N

 

the different about these two is while 1N overcall a minor, bid M is Natural, constructive, it's something like

 

(1D)2C(P)2H;

 

and cue-bid can be weak hand, overcaller shows his major, and will be passed.

 

so the problem of

 

http://biomass.to/mycroft/bridge/Raptor1NT.html

 

simply be solved,

[EricK]

I think giving up the natural 1N is a big big loss. You have a lot of balanced hand types to deal with which gets very difficult.

I wonder what you would be saying if you had been playing Raptor 1N all your life and someone suggested giving it up to show a strong NT hand.

 

Would it be "Wow! That's a really good idea as we have trouble showing those hands" or "I think giving up Raptor would be a big, big loss. You have a lot of hands with a 4 card major and 5 card minor to deal with which gets very difficult."?

 

Eric

[coyot]

I am in the Raptor (or Polish NT, as it is called here in Europe) camp as well...

 

I would agree that:

 

1) Raptor hands are more frequent than strong NT - and when used, they rarely lead to bad numbers. Passing 9 cards to partner in one bid is excellent for hand evaluation, as well, we've had a few marginal, shape based games with 4-4 major fits that would be hard to achieve otherwise

 

2) Giving up strong NT overcall may seem a loss, but:

- if your holding in their suit is long, you can wait for reopen double from partner even with 16-17 HCP

- if your holding in their suit is shorter, you will usually have shape good enough for a regular takeout

- bidding double and then NT can still cover good 17HCP hands...

- with 16 or bad 17HCP, you will hardly miss a game unless partner has any reason to reopen (which he usually will have if you have a good holding in their suit...)

 

3) You STEAL the 1NT bid more often. Your partner may quite often pass that bid and you're in the best spot (esp when nonvul - if you go down 1, they could score 90 in 1NT, if you go down 2, they could score 120 :))

[coyot]

Odds for strong NT overcall (16-18) are roughly 50% (shape) * 7% (points) - 3.5%.

Now, that is completely standalone probability. The real value will be significantly lower, because you will want to substract hands that:

 

- have no or bad stopper

- have good shape for takeout

- have a good 5card suit.

- have the opening suit too good (you will gladly wait for reopen double)

 

Also, the HCP probability is slighly lower than 7% due to the fact that RHO has already opened.

 

My guess is that only about 0.5% or fewer hands will actually be of the kind that NEEDS the 1NT direct bid.

16 HCP hands, which accout for almost half of the probability, can IMHO all be treated passively.

18 HCP hands with 5card can be upgraded to 19HCP and bid as takeout and then NT...

 

And, from the remaining hands that you would like very much to bid 1NT, a good portion are these that when you bid 1NT and go down one, you would very much like to have passed :)

[Chamaco]

Honestly, playing Raptor 1NT, there are indeed hands where I regret giving up the natural 1NT overcall.

 

There are quite a few things that can go wrong:

 

- if you pass or double offshape opps may bounce high, and pard may not read your shape/values

- if you pass pard may play you for a weaker hand

- if you pass, pard in the balancing seat is under a greater pressure (needs to balance lighter, with, say, 9 hcp

- if you double pard may preemptively (or constructively) jumpraise your "promised" major (where you have a doubleton)

 

 

All I am saying is that I think the frequency of such losses is lower than the frequency of the gains.

 

we will gain:

 

- on the vast majority of the 4M+long minor hands

- in some cases where the natural 1NT overcall is slaughtered by opps

 

Finally, there will be some hands where by simply doubling for "takeout", "a la power double" we shall reach the same spot as if we had opened 1NT, so these hands should be discounted.

 

===========

 

From this "quick'n'dirty" frequency-magnitude analysis I would think that at Matchpoints the Raptor 1NT seems to be a winner (despite the antifield position).

 

It seems possible to me that at IMPS, the risk of being stolen (not finding game) makes the amount of the losses heavier (even if less frequent), so that they matter more.

[inquiry]

I am going to have to strongly disapgree with Hannie as well. I LOVE raptor although I play a modifued version. For the most part, I use it with 4 cards in a major and five or more in a minor. But I include hands with five in the major but only with five in the lowest side suit as well. This means that when combined with Michaels cue-bid and unusual 2NT, raptor fills the missing two suiter (ususual lowest two always, michaels upper two always).

 

One might think that this gets confusing, but so far no real problem. The simple rule using this modified raptor is with five major and five in the lower minor, use raptor only with sound opening or better...overcall the major instead with less. This adds a lot of clarity to auctions that don't begin with RAPTOR. For instance, if you overcall a minor, you are highly unlikelty to have four cards in a major. If you overcall michals, t is always the highest suits, etc. We distinguish between the two hands (4-5 versus 5-5 good) by rebidding the major if partner tries to bail out in the minor or bid it freely otherwise.

 

My response schedule to takeout doubles seems to handle the strong NT variety as well. And as a raptor lover, I have never once said the problem with stong 1NT overcall is you might get doubled for penalty. I like RAPTOR for raptor, not because I dislike a natural 1NT overcall.

[Guest Jlall]

I wonder what you would be saying if you had been playing Raptor 1N all your life and someone suggested giving it up to show a strong NT hand.

 

Would it be "Wow! That's a really good idea as we have trouble showing those hands" or "I think giving up Raptor would be a big, big loss. You have a lot of hands with a 4 card major and 5 card minor to deal with which gets very difficult."?

 

Eric

I played raptor for 2 years with a regular partner (my father). We gave it up because we felt bidding 15-17 balanced hands became very awkward, and hands with 5m 4M were much easier to deal with (there was not an ideal bid like there is in raptor but overcalling or Xing was frequently a reasonable bid).

[42]

Jlall:[...] and hands with 5m 4M were much easier to deal with (there was not an ideal bid like there is in raptor but overcalling or Xing was frequently a reasonable bid

 

I find (no proof by simulations :)) that those 45 hands often come up and I dislike to dbl with an "offshape" hand (my partners always bid my shortest suit then :(), or overcall a minor and concealing the major, or overcalling a 4° major, concealing the minor. I love raptor. Isn't it an advantage to compete with more distributional hands? Partner can easily preempt. With stronger hands I double or pass, in 2. position it is not clear if declaring will be fun with a balanced hand. But you are the experts, I would like to hear more arguments :)

Caren

[Guest Jlall]

Well my view (and experience was this). Let's take a 1S opener. Give me various shapes:

 

1435

2425

3415

 

On the first one we would rather make a t/o X than a raptor even if playing raptor (or I would anyways).

 

The second one I can live with a t/o X. How often will partner bid a 4 card diamond suit? Well if he has 4 hearts, he won't. If he has 4 spades he will often bid 1N. Even 3343 will often bid 1N. He would need a shape like 4342 or 4342 with NO spade stopper. And even then, the opps may decide to do something like bid in front of him, or balance. And even if they don't, playing 2D is not the end of the world. Honestly I have played very few 4-2 fits with this style. Many shapes where it goes 1S X 2S he can make a responsive X if only holding 4 diamonds. Playing a 4-2 fit just doesn't happen that much, so X is satisfactory to me (though obviously not as good as raptor).

 

On the third shape, I will definitely wish I was playing raptor! This shape is awkward, and I must either pass or bid 2m. Not ideal. This is the shape where raptor really gains. But even if I do pass, it may go 1N p 2D and I'll get to X. LHO may make a 2/1 and I'll be glad I didn't bid :( Partner may bid. A lot of things can happen, and passing is not a clear loss all of the time. So pass is satisfactory to me. When my hand is so strong that I must bid 2C, that will be the biggest loss.

 

Now, lets say they open 1D. Let's think of some shapes...

 

3415

2425

1435

 

shape 1 is an easy t/o X even playing raptor.

 

shape 2 a t/o X is not available like last time. A 2 card MINOR is ok, but not major. However, we have a new option here. a 1 level overcall in the major. This is frequently acceptable. Sometimes we can pass, and later get a chance to make a t/o X IE 1D p 1S p 1N X. This isn't my style, but on certain hand types we're ok. Sometimes with good clubs we can bid 2C. Is this better than raptor? no, but it certainly isnt a hopeless situation when we have 3 reasonable bids that may land us on our feet.

 

Shape 3 is the same as shape 2, except passing and Xing is a much better option since surely SOMEONE will bid spades.

 

Such options are not available to 15-17 hand types. You must either pass, or X. If you pass you can never catch up, but sometimes will have to anyways with a shape like 4243 when they open 1S. You can just be stolen blind this way, especially with the light openers and repsonses these days. If you do X with a shape like 3334 15-17 and 2 stoppers, you can STILL miss game. If partner bids 2D we have to pass since he may have 0, but he may also have 8. I find these choices to be insoluable.

 

Anyways, that's just my experience.

[Chamaco]

Well my view (and experience was this). Let's take a 1S opener. Give me various shapes:

 

1435

2425

3415

Justin, I definitely agree with you for the analysis of 5431 shapes, but when Raptor becomes indeed great is when you get dealt a 64 shape.

 

What's more, with Raptor you can compete, at favourable, with those 9-10 hcp hands that do not provide the defensive strength needed for a takeout double.

 

Tradeoffs, tradeoffs :-)

[Guest Jlall]

Yes you're right I forgot to mention 6-4. I'm ok overcalling my minor with those (sometimes its even better for finding saves in the MINOR (over 1M) and also for lead directional purposes etc. I may miss the major but I may not (responsive Xs, etc), but again I have a reasonable option with a 6-4 hand. Youre right, tradeoffs, its just what you value most.

[DelfinoD]

This convenction was designed by strong-pass authors, sometimes it's called strong pass NT.

 

Anyway it's really great because when you overcall with suit eg. 1d-2c-pas-? now new suit is 5+ because pd. denied 4 card major.

[Guest Jlall]

Not sure that pard denies a 4 card suit when he overcalls 2m. Surely with 7-4 it's sensible to bid the minor?

[Chamaco]

Not sure that pard denies a 4 card suit when he overcalls 2m. Surely with 7-4 it's sensible to bid the minor?

My policy with 74 so far has been to bid Raptor and later rebid my minor, to show "extra shape".

 

Not sure how it would work vs serious opponents, though.