EarlPurple Posted September 22, 2005 Report Share Posted September 22, 2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted September 22, 2005 Report Share Posted September 22, 2005 The "poll" is pointless This isn't our business...We don't get to decide whether or not we pay for things. Silly little complaints like this one really don't do anyone any good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted September 22, 2005 Report Share Posted September 22, 2005 agree with richard, but i'll go a little further.. i think the question is unfair, since 'bots' is a misnomer... the zone has bots, bbo has gib... i've played with both and there's a world of difference between the two Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EarlPurple Posted September 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2005 Well you can hardly get worse than the bots at zone. I might agree to pay for bots who would play faultless bridge, who would play my system. I hope the boot and ban rule doesn't apply to bots because when I sit at a table with 3 bots I boot all the time. For one, it's the only way to get an undo, then I have to run across the table to get the undo and need to boot one of the opps bots as well, and that's to undo bot partner's idiocy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 I think we should simply remove your rights to use gib, given your actions with them. Fortunately in 8 days or so you will not be using them. And I find your question insulting... but who decides if "we" should pay for bots? Why the owners of the bots and the BBO software of course. What "we" have to decide is if "we" want to play with them. It looks like you want to play given the description of what you do when you do play with them. But the main point is, if you don;t think they are worth whatever it is Fred will charge to use them, then don't pay it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 I might agree to pay for bots who would play faultless bridge, who would play my system. Silly question: Is there a commercial bridge application that does what you want?I have Jack, which is proibably the best of the bunch.Its far from flawless. Admittedly, Jack does play my system, however, thats only because the developers were nice enough to code into the application... But even so, the point still stands. You seem to have somewhat unrealistic expectations... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 I think one of the best things about BBO is instead of having non bot users subsidise bot users, or non tourney players subsidising tourney players, or whatever, we all get to choose the features we want. By subsidising, I mean, if BBO were to charge a hefty annual membership fee, the people who use the premium features less will be overcharged, and the others undercharged. This way you get to pick what you like. Didn't get to read earlpurple's first post before its gone. Ah well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoeless Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 Don't think there was one - just the poll Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 What is this poll? Should we "have to" pay? We never have to pay, you can either pay or not get the product. If you would like free bots, program your own. This is a truly incredible poll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vang Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 agree with some other posters that is not our decision. but i don't see why they think we should not express an opinion. so, imho, bots on bbo should be free. if the owners decide to ask money for that, fine, i'll not use bots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerben42 Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 I have Jack, which is proibably the best of the bunch.Its far from flawless. Probably for the better that we don't have a program like Chtonic yet :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 Vote for me in the next World Presidental elections and I promise you free GIBs, free public transit, free food, zero taxes and a zero hours workweek. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EarlPurple Posted September 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 Well GIBs haven't reported me to abuse yet.But maybe if I'm hosting the table I have the right to decide whether or not to allow undos. And I've tried having GIB sitting only in opposition but when I switch seats the hands change so I have to put a bot in there at least for the start of the hand, and for the last trick so it doesn't show up as "passed out". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigpenz Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 Fred was well aware of the situation of GIBs and he was very open about it. He realized that its success would be if people want to use them. I guess maybe then maybe you should run a poll as to wether those of us who bought GIB should have paid for it, we should be glad that BBO is free :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EarlPurple Posted September 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 Well I have paid for Jack. Can't integrate it into BBO. And those who have paid for GIB as standalone software won't get any discount on here. I thought we might see GIB used expanded so we can partner GIB in tourneys, have them sit in as sub for disconnects etc. How will paying for it work? A small fee for unlimited usage or pay-per-use? But I know how this works - you start with a small fee and eventually it just becomes a major business. Saw it happen on okbridge, where we first paid $50 for unlimited use then within a few years it was $200 if you wanted to play in tourneys. I thought that perhaps GIB could have been introduced here in its limited form for free by Ginsberg with the hope that it would impress enough people to go out and buy the full product, thus in some ways being free advertising for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 Vote for me in the next World Presidental elections and I promise you free GIBs, free public transit, free food, zero taxes and a zero hours workweek. And I promise tail wind in the bicycle lanes! Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EarlPurple Posted September 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 Vote for me in the next World Presidental elections and I promise you free GIBs, free public transit, free food, zero taxes and a zero hours workweek. And I promise tail wind in the bicycle lanes! Roland Good. If you like cyclists so much then how about coming to London and build me a nice tunnel between Golders Green and the lower part of Hampstead Heath (near the Royal Free Hospital) to cut out that horribly steep hill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerben42 Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 Cycling uphill is good for your health as well as for mine. I know, I should do this more often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 And those who have paid for GIB as standalone software won't get any discount on here. Are you a psychic? I ask because a number of your statements. Take the one quoted above for instance. When Fred announced GIB he specifically said he was unsure how much they would cost to use, and he commented on the question of if you were a licensed GIB user if you would have to pay at all or if you might get a discount. I have not seen any further on this issue. I thought we might see GIB used expanded so we can partner GIB in tourneys, have them sit in as sub for disconnects etc. I wonder, since you "boot" GIBS all the time so you can have undos and the like (This also means you are doing this at imp and MP tables, as undo's are allowed at teaching tables...and this is pretty much a no-no) if you are really interested in having GIB as a tourney partner. Particularily since you said you might pay (I will say, use) GIB if.. ." (it) would play faultless bridge, who would play my system." Well it is not going too, so why the interest? I thought that perhaps GIB could have been introduced here in its limited form for free by Ginsberg with the hope that it would impress enough people to go out and buy the full product, thus in some ways being free advertising for him. Unclear why you thought this. GIB took work by a number of people to integrate into the program And when it was announced, it was announced as a fee-based service, with the introductory trial period. How will paying for it work? A small fee for unlimited usage or pay-per-use? This is not settled, but I suspect it is reasonable to assume it will be small fee for a time-specific unlilmited service (say a month or a year). But I know how this works - you start with a small fee and eventually it just becomes a major business. Saw it happen on okbridge, where we first paid $50 for unlimited use then within a few years it was $200 if you wanted to play in tourneys. Well, having shunned OKBRIDGE, I can't discuss their policy. As BBO has become profitable (I would be quite stunned if it wasn't profitable right now), Fred and Uday have kept their promises to keep some of the site issues free. They introduced pay tourneys, but they let almost anyone who wants to run a free tourney to do so. They even go out of their way to try to ensure that you have choices for free tourneys by allowing free ones to start whenever they want. They introduce robots that you can, at your own desire, decide to use or not for what presumably will be a nominal fee. It is my belief, supported by the history of the site, that the business model of BBO is to promote bridge, and to make profit off many small transactions. Now if you averaged playing in 1 ACBL tourney a day, that would be $365 a year. With that view, maybe the $200 a year at OKBRIDGE was not a bad deal. But if you went to your local club and played an average of 1 ACBL event that would run you somewhere around five times that amount. I average maybe 2 ACBL (or other pay events) per month...yet I play nearly everyday. That is the advantage of BBO... you get to decide. Vote with your dollars.... don't want ot pay to use GIB? Then don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 I agree, BBO has all the free options plus more than it had when I first came to it. Nothing has changed there. They now also offer some pay services, but do not FORCE it on you like OKB. In OKB you HAD to pay, there were no free options. I cannot see BBO becoming anything remotely like OKB while it is led by fred, sheri, uday and co. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerben42 Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 I cannot see BBO becoming anything remotely like OKB while it is led by fred, sheri, uday and co. Yes, and let's be grateful for that! BTW I do not think one should allow GIB to play in pay tourneys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 BTW I do not think one should allow GIB to play in pay tourneys. It would be funny to see how long until GIB became a life master :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uday Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 I'd like nothing better than to be able to have free bots. Unluckily 1. the bots are someone else's property (ie, much as I can't offer you free scans of every bridge book, I can't give away software that isnt mine). The sister case, Deep Finesse, explicitly allowed us to use DF at a table in exchange for the logo that pops up when it is used. 2. We (BBO) will make some money every time someone buys time w/a bot. I am not planning to retire on this cash. I'm not even planning a movie; lets see what happens. Maybe no one will care. Maybe Bots are worthless in an online environment for any number of reasons. Who knows? Who cares? We'll find out one way or another soon enough. 3. If anyone wants to buy out the GIB rights and then grant me a license to distribute them for free as GIB bots on BBO, I will be delighted to do so. I'll even put up a DF-sized logo in exchange. 4. GIB is a product of some other guy, some other company. How can *we* be taken to task that one new way of selling GIB doesnt cater to the original customers? Not my biz, just as it isnt my biz that your old gameboy isnt as sharp as the newer models. If you have a squawk about GIB, contact, well, GIB. Why should I subsidize him (maybe I will anyway, but I dont see why this subsidy is a right). It is fruitless to worry that we'll turn into OKB. As long as we can afford it, the basics of BBO will remain unchanged (ie, free). We can "afford it" now. We couldnt afford it in the past but we did it anyway. Why suddenly worry after all these years that we'll change this ? As long as we can think of new ways to make money without taking away from the basic site, we will do so. As long as we can think of new features to add for free, we will do so. Who decides which new things are free, which are pay? Dunno, we usually sort this stuff out as it happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigpenz Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 BTW I do not think one should allow GIB to play in pay tourneys. It would be funny to see how long until GIB became a life master :D Funny you should mention that, GIB at one time was registered as an ACBL member and somehow it caused some sort of uproar several years ago ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigpenz Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 As long as we can think of new features to add for free, we will do so. Who decides which new things are free, which are pay? Dunno, we usually sort this stuff out as it happens. Has it ever been attempted to where everyone could just share their own bandwidth and have a P2P Bridge Playing Network. Sort of like the file sharing P2P Networks. It seems BBO biggest cost is the bandwidth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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