A puzzlement

[pclayton]

Playing in a tight team match you look at (all vul) ♠AQ ♥AKxx ♦AQT8 ♣8xx. RHO in 3rd opens 1♠. You double of course. LHO bids 2♥ and pard bids 3♣. RHO passes. After checking the proverbial backs of the cards, you bid 3N and are greeted by the Q♥ lead:

 

[hv=d=w&v=b&n=skjxxhxxd7xxckj6x&s=saqhakxxdaqt8c8xx]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

I'll give you a freebie - you decide to win the 1st heart (RHO follows with the 7).

 

What now?

[Echognome]

Can I go back and duck the opening lead?

 

Seriously, I'm putting West on 5 or 6 hearts. If he has 5, ducking really helps my cause. If he has 6, then I should probably take the first one. In today's light opening style for weak 2's, I think it's more likely he has 5.

 

Then suppose I win the second heart and RHO follows suit. I cash my top 2 spades and finess ♣J. If this lose to the Q, then say a diamond comes back. I can stick in the Q (as a semi-discovery/avoidance play) and if that loses I don't mind the hearts being cleared. My plan is to take 4♠s, 2♥s, 2♦s, and 1♣.

[Free]

Agree, don't like the fact that I didn't duck...

[pclayton]

I think we can infer that LHO wouldn't open a vul weak 2 on QJT (maybe an outside J) otherwise our RHO has otherwise opened a sub 10 count on a 10-high suit.

 

Ok - let's say you duck the heart and they are nice enough to continue hearts. I won't say if RHO follows.

 

For arguments sake, let's assume we want to start this way. You play off ♠AQ, and hook the club losing the Q. Diamond come back, you hook the Q, cash the ace and put RHO in with the K (we'll assume they are 3-3). You have lost 3 tricks so far and you are completely isolated from your hand.

 

So, RHO happily throws you on the board with a spade and you have to lead away from your ♣K.

 

Now do you see why its wrong to lay off the QH?

 

Nevertheless, the fact is I haven't figured out this entire hand, but if you look at the above sequence of plays, you might be able to come up with some 'variations'.

 

The rabbit hole runs pretty deep on this one..... :)

[Al_U_Card]

I wonder if North thought about making a renegative dbl of 2H? Looks like at least down 3 if you pass......

[pclayton]

I wonder if North thought about making a renegative dbl of 2H? Looks like at least down 3 if you pass......

Al - I think most (but not all) would play a double of 2♥ as penalty - not responsive.

[Echognome]

I don't cash any tricks when I win the ♦Q. I play a club up immediately hoping the ♣A is onside. If that loses, then I'm reeling a bit.

 

For the first part you mention, I don't really mind if they don't continue hearts. A spade doesn't hurt my plan, nor does a club. A diamond gives me a free finesse.

 

I know it's a simple line, but I need an entry to dummy and I don't see an attempted throw in helping.

[pclayton]

I don't cash any tricks when I win the ♦Q. I play a club up immediately hoping the ♣A is onside. If that loses, then I'm reeling a bit.

 

For the first part you mention, I don't really mind if they don't continue hearts. A spade doesn't hurt my plan, nor does a club. A diamond gives me a free finesse.

 

I know it's a simple line, but I need an entry to dummy and I don't see an attempted throw in helping.

We all take wrong inferences at the table - especially after random bids like 3rd chair openings in short matches.

 

However, if LHO has either club honor, I wouldn't have posted this hand. The hand more or less plays itself. Trying to cope with 5-2 hearts is not the theme here, believe me.

[Guest Jlall]

However, if LHO has either club honor, I wouldn't have posted this hand.

Are we supposed to take this into account? When someone gives a hand I think we should play what we think the right line is, not assume a hand is a certain way because it was given as a problem.

[Al_U_Card]

I wonder if North thought about making a renegative dbl of 2H?  Looks like at least down 3 if you pass......

Al - I think most (but not all) would play a double of 2♥ as penalty - not responsive.

I believe that RESPONSIVE only applies after they raise their suit. Since pard has promised H for his dbl, the renegative double shows cards and a tolerance for the unbid suits expecting pard to convert to penalty if suitable....

[Al_U_Card]

Since the D honors rate to be with opener, are we trying to build entries (leading clubs and a S overtake) to hook Diamonds to make the contract? (that D7 looks suspicious.... :P )

[Guest Jlall]

I wonder if North thought about making a renegative dbl of 2H?  Looks like at least down 3 if you pass......

Al - I think most (but not all) would play a double of 2♥ as penalty - not responsive.

I believe that RESPONSIVE only applies after they raise their suit. Since pard has promised H for his dbl, the renegative double shows cards and a tolerance for the unbid suits expecting pard to convert to penalty if suitable....

No offense but if the opponents knew this was your agreement they will psyche you blind. One of the most common baby psyches is 1x-X-1M or 1S-X-2H. That is why most play penalty Xs in that situation.

[pclayton]

However, if LHO has either club honor, I wouldn't have posted this hand.

Are we supposed to take this into account? When someone gives a hand I think we should play what we think the right line is, not assume a hand is a certain way because it was given as a problem.

No of course not.

 

What you should read into that comment is that if LHO has either club honor - this becomes a non-problem.

[Guest Jlall]

What you should read into that comment is that if LHO has either club honor - this becomes a non-problem.

Not if you play in such a way that risks going down when LHO has a club honor.

[Al_U_Card]

No offense but if the opponents knew this was your agreement they will psyche you blind. One of the most common baby psyches is 1x-X-1M or 1S-X-2H. That is why most play penalty Xs in that situation.

Oops, hopefully I was right about the responsive double at least.

 

I checked my source and renegative double is used by OPENER after pard makes a negative double and RHO raises the overcall......guess I don't get to play in too many circles where baby psyches are common :) ....(fortunately for me..... :o )

[Fluffy]

duck, get next ♥, ♠AQ+♣ to the ♣J

[awm]

I think the main question here is psychological. What do we think is going on with the opponents bidding? It seems like there are two possibilities:

 

(1) RHO opened a 9 or 10 point hand in third seat with 1♠, despite holding nothing in spades. LHO then made a competitive 2♥ bid that should show moderate values on QJTxx(x) of hearts and no other cards.

 

(2) RHO's opening was just a psych, he has very little. LHO's bid was based upon sound values (say 9-10 hcp or so for a passed hand).

 

If you think scenario (1) is what's going on, the play would seem to be to win the lead, cash the ♠AQ and the other top heart honor, then lead a club towards dummy covering whatever card LHO plays. This puts RHO on lead, and the best he can do is to exit a spade (putting you in dummy). At this point you can take a diamond finesse, and you have some decision of whether to play opener for ♦K+J or just the king.

 

However, I think scenario (2) is a lot more likely. In this case if I cash out the hearts LHO may well gain the lead with either the club ace or diamond king, and cash hearts to set the contract. In this case best seems to be to cash two top spades and try to guess the clubs. I'd play a club to the king, since LHO having values in this scenario makes the ace likely to be onside, then try cashing two spades and playing a diamond to either the ten or queen (hoping I can take 4 spades 1 club 2 diamonds and 2 hearts).

[mikeh]

The comments make it clear that we have to play RHO for AQ of ♣. I think that what follows is reasonable anyway, since there is obviously a chance that opener holds both.

 

Unfortunately, it seems to me that doing so means catering to a very narrow set of hands.

 

One might win the 1st ♥ (I agree that we should do so, because LHO rates to have a terrible hand with QJ10xxx).

 

If both ♣ are offside, we probably need to preserve our ♠ holdings, so trick 2 is a ♣ to the J.

 

Back comes a ♠. We win and cash our second ♠ winner before playing a ♣, which we duck. i do not think that LHO has QJ10xxx ♥ and the ♣A.

 

There are forks here, because we do not know who wins the second ♣.

 

If it is LHO, he will return a ♥ on which RHO probably throws a ♠. We then exit our last ♣, praying for ♣ to be 3-3. RHO will have to play a ♦. We can either play the 10 or the Q.

 

The 10 is catastrophic if LHO has the Jack.

 

But if LHO has the J, it has to be Jx, or else, when we cash the ♦A, RHO can throw the K.

 

And we need LHO to hold J9, or else we lose 3♣ and 2♦... our exit from 108 goes into RHO's K9.

 

So maybe we had better play the 10, and then we know that we can endplay RHO with the 3rd round, and hope that RHO began life with 6=1=3=3, something like 109xxxx x KJx AQx

 

If RHO wins the second ♣ with the Ace, he is endplayed. We can and should now play him for 4+♦. We have an entry in ♣ to enjoy 4♠, 2♥, 1♣ and we can safely put in the 10 on the ♦ return (or on a ♠ return, hook the ♦10 immediately, with the ♣K still in dummy.

 

If RHO wins the second ♣ with a spot, we hook the ♦10, win the ♥ return should it lose, and exit a ♣ and go down, losing 3♣ and 2♦ :D .

 

In any event, we need 3-3 ♣ or 4-2 with doubleton AQ on our right, and usually both ♦ honours on our right..

 

This has exhausted me, and I have not reviewed this so it may contain a basic error: it has been a long day :D Be gentle :D

[pclayton]

Thanks Mike and Adam for putting some ergs into this one.

 

I think this best line (which I didn't take) but was suggested my pard at the time and a few others whose play I respect is to take the 1st heart, unblock the ♠AQ and play a club to the Jack.

 

Seemingly the defense's best return is a diamond, but you can finesse the Q. Even if West has the J♦, RHO can unblock the K and wait for 2 more club tricks, but will be eventually endplayed into giving dummy the lead for the 12th and 13th tricks. Whether or not RHO has a 4th club, or a 6th spade, he's toast.

 

So, say instead of playing a diamond, RHO puts you immediately on the board with a spade. You can't cash both, otherwise when West wins the hypothetical 3rd diamond, a club shift and at least one spade cash beats you. So you finesse the diamond yourself and go about your business, eventually endplaying RHO in the above variation.

 

As it turns out, RHO is 6=1=3=3, so this play works. Is there a defense?

 

I'm sure there are permutations when either or both minors are 4-2. Al though the ♦7 may be key, but somehow the ♣8 might be a key card.

 

At the table, I took a play not suggested by anyone. At T2, I played the ♦10 out of my hand. RHO won with the J (RHO had KJx) and played a spade back at me. I won the Ace, overtook the Q of spades and finessed the diamond. But here, because I weakened dummy's spades, RHO just wins the club - punches out the last spade and waits with the ♣AQ and a good spade. A poor effort I admit :lol: