BPO-005B

[inquiry]

[hv=d=n&v=e&s=sthakjt3dq93ca764]133|100|Scoring: IMP

BPO-005B

WEST NORTH EAST SOUTH

-------  Pass     Pass   1♥

 Pass   2♥      Pass    ? your bid

 

You open 3rd seat, partner raises to 2♥

[/hv]

[hrothgar]

BPO-005B: 3C

 

3C should be a long suit game try in clubs. In this case, I don't consider myself strong enough to be exploring game. However, I'm short in Spades and I consider it incumbent on myself to shut down the opponent's ability to introduce the master suit at the 2 level. If partner is long in Spades, he probably won't have an appropriate hand to support my clubs and we'll rest comfortably in 3H. If partner is short in Spades, the 3C bid will position him well during a competitive auction.

[luke warm]

for some reason i found this to be a tough hand to bid... anyway, i voted 3C as a game try, on the theory that if partner will accept a club try we have a shot... this is one of those where even if you could show a short suit try it still might be better to know about a possible double fit

[kfgauss]

I passed on this one. Partner didn't use drury -- passed hand raises to 2M are weaker than ones by unpassed hands.

 

Fearing them competing in spades is an interesting point. I don't think we play preemptive re-raises, though, and I'm not willing to make a game try to shut them out (though it will work quite well at doing that when pard rejects).

 

When they compete to 2S, we could bid 3C over that to do what you suggest, Richard, but I don't think I want to emphasize clubs over diamonds on this hand. I'll just bid 3H when the time comes.

 

Andy

[luke warm]

re: clubs vs. diamonds, to my way of thinking it isn't all that close... partner with. say, 4 clubs to the king can accept, or he can accept with a stiff... but you have a point about no drury, i didn't think of that

[kfgauss]

re: clubs vs. diamonds, to my way of thinking it isn't all that close... partner with. say, 4 clubs to the king can accept, or he can accept with a stiff... but you have a point about no drury, i didn't think of that

For game try purposes, yes I'd prefer clubs to diamonds (though I'd make a short suit try if I had one since help in diamonds is fairly good too). For the purpose of helping partner compete, I don't feel I should tell partner about my clubs -- my secondary honor is in diamonds and my primary honor is in clubs so this wouldn't be a very pure double fit.

 

Andy

[mike777]

3C long suit game try.

 

My first choice would be 2S complicated start of short suit game try in spades but I doubt that is a system option.

 

Closer to bidding 4h over 2h than passing. See FTL :P.

 

Again no need for Drury. More important to be able to bid 2clubs natural and just use Bergen to get to 3 level fast with your 9 card fit.

 

Disagree that 2h should be weaker as a passed hand, why change system, still consider 2H=7-10 hcp constructive 3 card raise here.

[kfgauss]

Disagree that 2h should be weaker as a passed hand, why change system, still consider 2H=7-10 hcp constructive 3 card raise here.

The system is already changed -- we have Drury.

 

Drury is a wonderful gadget with an enormous amount of room. Great 8's and most 9's should be bidding it in my opinion. Also note that 1NT by a passed hand should only be semi-forcing, and so you should take the "bad raises" out of it and just raise to 2M with those. This is perhaps a bit more extreme than standard, but I think it's fairly standard for at least decent 9's and basically all 10's to be bidding drury.

 

[Edit: Totally missed your point that you don't like Drury. It's perhaps ok to get to the 3 level with those 9 card fits (I assume you don't open on 4 in 3rd/4th very much), but what about the 3-card limit raises? It'd be quite a travesty to end up at the 3-level with a fairly balanced pair of hands with 10 points each.]

 

Andy

[mike777]

Thanks for response.

 

I will pass with 10 hcp and balanced hand in third and fourth seat 5332, not open 1H.

I just think whatever gain there is from Drury, and not sure there is much, is out weighed by:

1) knowing number of trumps responder has

2) getting to 3 level faster

3) being able to use game tries after 1 major=2 major

4) 2c Drury is artificial bid and you lose something always when using artificial bid over natural bid, only question is "does the gain outweigh the loss"?

[pigpenz]

I had to think long and hard between 3♣ and pass, but in the end chose 3♣ game try...i know this may sound silly but the hand could still belong to the opps in ♠'s so at least the game try will most likely eliminate that.

[Guest Jlall]

Thanks for response.

 

I will pass with 10 hcp and balanced hand in third and fourth seat 5332, not open 1H.

I just think whatever gain there is from Drury, and not sure there is much, is out weighed by:

1) knowing number of trumps responder has

2) getting to 3 level faster

3) being able to use game tries after 1 major=2 major

4) 2c Drury is artificial bid and you lose something always when using artificial bid over natural bid, only question is "does the gain outweigh the loss"?

Mike, I understand your position let me just tell you my thoughts (about drury).

 

1) If you like bergen, you can still play it. Drury could just be used to show a 3 card limit. This is not my preference, but the 2 are not exclusive. You could also play 2 way drury but I know you'll hate that idea :P

 

2) Getting to the 3 level fast is not that important when both opponents have passed. You don't really need to preempt them. Yes I know its *possible* they have a game, but you might consider the likelihood that 2 passed hands have a game AND will bid it AND wont bid it if you get to the 3 level quickly. Even when they can effectively compete and push you to 3, you haven't lost anything, and a lot of times they cant compete even when it's right.

 

3) You can of course use game tries even playing drury. kfguass just evaluates this hand as not a game try. I don't think the range is much different between raises by a PH hand and an UPH in normal drury, a drury still shows a limit raise (a hand evaluated as too good to show a normal raise). If you want to include good constructive hands, thats a matter of agreement but not standard as far as I know.

 

4) I agree, you must consider the gains and the losses. The gains are basically the ability to stay at the 2 level opposite a limit raise in an opener that is potentially light, and the ability to thoroughly investigate slam and game. With drury you get to MAKE game tries that you wouldnt in bergen (where it would go 1H p 3D or 1H p 1N p 2x p 3H). This investigation is helpful. You lose a natural 2C bid, but how likely is it to come up? You need about 9-10 with a 6 card suit (some 10s you would open) or 10 with a 5 card suit. I don't rate the loss that high.

[kfgauss]

Thanks for response.

 

I will pass with 10 hcp and balanced hand in third and fourth seat 5332, not open 1H.

I just think whatever gain there is from Drury, and not sure there is much, is out weighed by:

1) knowing number of trumps responder has

2) getting to 3 level faster

3) being able to use game tries after 1 major=2 major

4) 2c Drury is artificial bid and you lose something always when using artificial bid over natural bid, only question is  "does the gain outweigh the loss"?

I like to be able to shade in 3rd seat (and to open those 5332 10 counts with spades in 4th seat) and think it's a loss not to. I agree there's a loss to the natural 2C bid, but I don't think it's great. I bid 1NT or 3C on these hands, depending on how nice my club suit is. (Aside: with some partners I play 3m as a fit jump here and 2NT as the club hand.)

 

Here are some comments on your other points:

 

(1) & (2) Feel free to play 2D showing 4 trump, or play some 3-level bid showing 4 trump if you wish and only bid 2C with 3 trump.

 

(3) Drury has so much room and one can play all sorts of game tries over it. An example:

1M-2C;

2D = unsure about game

2M = no game

4M = yes game

other = slam try

 

Then, over 2D, bids by responder:

2M = 8+-10

other = game try (use whatever method you like) with a true limit raise

(4M = if there could be game, there is)

 

Then, over 1M-2C;2D-2M, use your normal game tries again.

 

(4) A point I'll add here is that I've considered scrapping 2C as drury and using 2D instead, at least over 1S (then 1S-2D;2H is like the old 1S-2C;2D, etc). There's a weak two in diamonds, so you're much less likely to want to bid 2D than 2C naturally. Also, if you're playing 2/1, you've already given up these bids in 1st/2nd (for the purposes of the non-GF hands we're talking about) -- not really much of a point, but thought I'd bring it up.

 

Andy

[mike777]

Please note I do make a game try with this hand after 7-10 hcp raise. Willing to get to 3 level on this hand when those using Drury are passing 2H :P.

 

I think honor location is worth the risk of trying for game but willing to listen and learn.

 

 

Of course maybe I am biased, partner will so seldom have a 3 card limit raise being a passed hand. With opening 11 hcp hands, some 5-4 10 hcp hands and 2h=most 7-10 hcp hands a 3 card limit raise seems very rare :D

 

On the other hand if a 3 card limit raise is not rare or very rare, I still prefer no Drury but that is another issue :).

[Guest Jlall]

On the other hand if a 3 card limit raise is not rare or very rare, I still prefer no Drury but that is another issue :P.

This makes sense. My interpretation of a limit raise is a good 9-11 points (and yes i pass most balanced 11s). 8 and a stiff would also be a limit raise most of the times (whether im a passed or unpassed hand). Yours is obviously 11 points and you open all 11s, so it's unlikely to come up for you :D

[Echognome]

3♥ blocking. 3♣ may be the winning action, but so might pass. It seems to me like it's the opponents hand and I'm just going to make it a little tougher to balance.

[mike777]

Has partner with 2h denied a hand as bad as:

AXX

Q9X

JTXX

JTX

 

I hope so.

[han]

I also voted 3C. I think 2S can be about 6-9 pts in this position, and game is still possible. The fact that the opponents are not bidding worries me.

[HeartA]

I voted for 3♦, the suit which needs help the most.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

2NT, game try.

 

Marlowe

[Rebound]

Well, it looks like I'm in left field. I voted for pass.

[helene_t]

I voted pass. 2♥ is a sound raise opposite a 1st/2nd seat opening but oppsosite a 3rd seat opening you have drury and you don't have forcing 1NT. Besides, the silence of the opps suggests that partner has vasted values in spades.

 

In real life I would probably have made some kind of game try, but I don't know what kind of trials we play. And pass is more reasonable than 4♥, I think.

[Gerben42]

I bid a long suit try in ♣ (3♣) but would much rather have preferred a short suit try in ♠ if available.

[Blofeld]

I pass, though I'm tempted by 3♣. But I think the three-level will be too much more often than the game makes.

[badderzboy]

Hmm I went for 3♦ as a long suit game try, I'm not as worried about ♣ as I have may have only 2 losers there but I hate my ♦s where I may lose 3 off the bounce.

 

Saying that I rarely use Long Suit trys so not that familiar.

 

Could someone explain why here that 3♣ is more appropriate?

 

Thanks

 

Steve

[whereagles]

Pass. Pard didn't bid Drury, so I can hardly believe we make 4♥ here. The risks in 3♥ do not compensate finding pard with the miracle matching hand.