BPO-005A - Time to discuss

[inquiry]

The BPO-005 poll will close at 7PM EDT today. I have opened the first hand for discussion, and will open the others over the next day or two. IF you haven't votes, vote now!!! As I mentioned earlier, all these hands are from very recent Vugraph events shown on the BBO... Watch this weekend, boy is there a lot scheduled.

 

[hv=d=e&v=b&s=sat5hdj964caqt862]133|100|Scoring: IMP

BPO-005A

EAST SOUTH WEST NORTH

  1♥     2♣     Pass   2NT

 Pass   ? your bid

 

RHO opens 1♥, you overcall 2♣ partner raises to 2NT

[/hv]

[hrothgar]

BPO-005A: 3N

 

I'm starting to believe that a 2NT advance over a 2m over should be artificial (or, at the very least forcing). 2NT can't be the right place to play. If the clubs run, our partnership should take 9 tricks in a NT contract. If the clubs don't run, we aren't aren't going to make 8 tricks. Accordingly, how can it make sense to play 2N as natural and non-forcing?

 

Potentially, 2NT should be used to ask for suit quality. If your suit won't run opposite Hxx, rebid 3m. Otherwise show a side suit stopper. In this case, with stoppers in both Diamonds and Spades, the appropriate rebid is 3N. In practice, I expect that its possible to come up with something better. More specifically, its necessary to coordinate the 2NT response with a 2H cue bid. It might make sense to invert 2S and 2N (use 2S as the ask and 2N as a forcing with Spades) however, I doubt that any of that is appropriate for BBO Advanced.

[mike777]

3C

 

Hopefully P can rebid 3nt if he has a club honor.

Partner will play me for 6 non running clubs, short hearts and minimum overcall.

[pigpenz]

we know what we have but what do we expect partner to have for his 2NT??

any suggestions?

[Guest Jlall]

we know what we have but what do we expect partner to have for his 2NT??

any suggestions?

balanced 10 count with a (some) heart stopper(s) on average.

[Beto]

I guess this is possbile:1

 

♠ Jxx

♥ KJxx

♦ Kxx

♣ Kxx

 

However, partner may not have clubs, but then he should be stronger like:

 

♠ KJx

♥ AQ10x

♦ Kxxx

♣ xx

[pigpenz]

i was curious as to what sort of constraints we would set for partner, and then run it through a simulator and then through deef finesse. I am obviously bored at work.

 

Like

10-12 hcp

with 3-4hearts with honor

1-3 clubs

 

so ;

2-5♠

3-5♥ with A,K, or Q

2-6♦

1-3♣

10-12 hcp

[Guest Jlall]

♠ KJx

♥ AQ10x

♦ Kxxx

♣ xx

I would not expect a hand this strong, but my red 2 level overcalls tend to be sound. I would force to game with this hand opposite an opener with (usually) 6+ clubs though, and that's about what I would expect from pard.

[cherdano]

I chose 3♥, intending this as choice of games. I like my hand too much not to force to game, but I am not yet convinced we have found the right strain. At least it will now be partner's fault if we end in the wrong game :P

[inquiry]

I guess this is possbile:1

 

♠ Jxx

♥ KJxx

♦ Kxx

♣ Kxx

 

However, partner may not have clubs, but then he should be stronger like:

 

♠ KJx

♥ AQ10x

♦ Kxxx

♣ xx

Beto's description agrees nicely with the actual hand held (10 hcp, balanced). This hand is from the Brazilian Team Championship finals. At one table the player with this hand faced a different problem when his RHO bid 3♥ over 2NT. This is the problem facing Barbosa in the closed room of the finals 3 of 4.

 

 

One of Beto's two hands is actually very close to the held hand.

[whereagles]

I think I bid 3NT. On grounds that pard shd have club fit or extras.

[Guest Jlall]

Beto's description agrees nicely with the actual hand held (10 hcp, balanced).

I guess my description was pretty accurate too :P

[mike777]

♠ KJx

♥ AQ10x

♦ Kxxx

♣ xx

I would not expect a hand this strong, but my red 2 level overcalls tend to be sound. I would force to game with this hand opposite an opener with (usually) 6+ clubs though, and that's about what I would expect from pard.

ditto, we did make a vul overcall of 2clubs.

[inquiry]

Beto's description agrees nicely with the actual hand held (10 hcp, balanced).

I guess my description was pretty accurate too :P

Yes... but you were agreeing with beto... :-)

[pigpenz]

at first when i was looking at it,it seemed like pass might be resonable but when looking at the possiblities passing takes out the possiblities of game so i chose 3♣'s showing six and letting partner make a good deciscion if he should only have KX ♣'s

[Guest Jlall]

Beto's description agrees nicely with the actual hand held (10 hcp, balanced).

I guess my description was pretty accurate too :P

Yes... but you were agreeing with beto... :-)

err my post came first lol (at least on my computer). Our posts were 1 minute apart so i dunno. Anyways I was just being silly, this doesn't really matter :P

[han]

Wow, only three hours to respond.

 

I voted 3C, but I found this a very tough call, perhaps the toughest of the set. My main reason was that I can't have much less for a 2C overcall when red.

[han]

Yours didn't show up on my computer at all Justin. Oops, still had you marked as enemy! :P

[mike777]

Fascinating responses so far, very entertaining.

 

Some think this hand is barely minimum overcall, others really like the hand and force to some game. Some thought very hard choices, others fairly straight forward :P.

[han]

To Richard:

 

I agree that it is rarely right to play in 2NT. I disagree that 2NT is useless as a showing bid instead of an asking bid. This argument (we don't want to play in 2NT so we don't need it as natural) is just wrong.

 

Note that I am disagreeing with the argument, not with the conclusion. I agree that there are many situations where 2NT can better be played as something artificial. I'm not sure if this is one of those situations. Given the large range for the 2C overcall you need some way to invite.

[hrothgar]

To Richard:

 

I agree that it is rarely right to play in 2NT. I disagree that 2NT is useless as a showing bid instead of an asking bid. This argument (we don't want to play in 2NT so we don't need it as natural) is just wrong.

 

Note that I am disagreeing with the argument, not with the conclusion. I agree that there are many situations where 2NT can better be played as something artificial. I'm not sure if this is one of those situations. Given the large range for the 2C overcall you need some way to invite.

The 2NT advance uses up an AMAZING amount of bidding room. Accordingly, if it asks a question, it needs to ask a VERY specific question. So far, I've seen three suggestions regarding what question to ask

 

1) Do you hold a minimum or a maximum (for all intents and purposes inviting game opposite a max is an range ask)

 

2) Do you hold a running Club suit (Mike777 suggested that the 3♣ rebid denies AKQxxx in clubs)

 

3) Do you hold a Club suit that has a decent chance of running opposite Hx (or Hxx)

 

Me, I like option 3...

 

Option 2 seems too infrequent, especial if a jump cue bid is available as a stopper ask.

 

Option 1 seems flawed since information regarding range is less important than information about fitting honors.

[HeartA]

I voted to 3♥, suggesting ♣s were good but ♥s were short (stiff or void). If my pd had 2 stoppers with [CL} honor or solid stopper with ♣ honor, 3NT would be good. Otherwise, we have to play 4♣ (or even 5).

[pigpenz]

I did a dealmaster analysis and deep finesse alanaysis

on only 100 hands

results.

3nt make 35%

3nt down 65%

3♣ make 85%

4♣ make 50%

5♣ make 20%

 

So i guess if you stretch to bid a vul game even if its 35% that should be right

[cherdano]

Richard, I think 2NT DOES ask a very specific question. It asks: Do you have a better than minimum hand for playing opposite a balanced ~11 hcp hand that can take care of the heart stopper? This is way more specific than min/max (min/max for what?).

 

Well, I grew up as and still am a natural bidder, and hence my intuitive guess is that the "balanced invite" is a way more useful question than the very specific questions you suggest. I suppose someone who is a scientist/relay bidder by heart would come to the opposite conclusion. Bridge is great!

 

Arend

[pclayton]

3♣ - which should guarantee a 6th club. Pard can still move.

 

3N seems presumptive.