Defense vs Polish Club and "Short Club"

[Chamaco]

Hi all,

I know there have been a few past threads on defense vs Polish Club by other fellow posters, but I still have some doubts.

 

Case 1- Polish Club

 

a. do you use double as natural takeout assuming opener has clubs or can it be a generic double shwing opening values ?

I have seen some strong italian players playing:

...Dbl = opening values, mildly takeout WITH 4+ clubs;

...1D = takeout without clubs

...Higher bids= natural (jumps = natural wjo)

 

b. do you play the same 2-suited overcalls ?

e.g. is 1C-(2C) Michaels (if you use it) ?

 

c. what's 1C-(3C) overcall ?

 

d. what's you strategy ?

...- frisky overcalls like vs the strong club

...- disciplined overcalls (after all most times opener has clubs or a weak NT hand, just as in more natural-ish systems)

 

Case 2- "Short club" in a 2/1 context

 

Pretty much the same questions:

 

a. use of the dbl or other takeout

b. 2-suited overcalls

c. 1C-(3C) overcall

d. general strategy

[Gerben42]

Defence against PC:

 

1♣ ?

Dbl for take out (major-oriented, don't care much if ♦xx or so)

1♦♥♠:2♣: Natural

1NT: 4M + 5+m

2♦: Wilkosz (any 5-5 except minors)

2NT: Minors

 

In principle this works against type 2 also (except probably better to use 1NT as 4M + 5+♦)

[Gerben42]

In the Dutch top division this wacky convention called Holographic versus short Club is used:

 

Dbl = Take-out

1♦ = Both majors

1♥ = Overcall in ♥ or 5+minor and a side 4-card (not ♥)

1♠ = Overcall in ♠ or 5+minor and 4♥

1NT = 15 - 17, or weak jump in ♣/♦

2m = 5♥/♠ + 4 in that minor constructive

2♥ = weak jump in ♥/♠

2♠ = good minor suit preempt

2NT = both minors

 

Very complicated stuff - not for the faint of heart

[Chamaco]

Defence against PC:

Ty Gerben. ;)

 

What about the strength requirements vs PC ?

 

Which of these bid is "nuisance" (does not guarantee constructive values) and which is geared to a constructive auction ?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

we play the following, we call it "mod." Lionel.

 

Here it goes

 

constructive values, i.e. +11HCP

 

X - arbitary 3 suiter

1NT - two suiter (4-4) with spades

2C - two suiter (4-4) with clubs and hearts

2D - two suiter (4-4) with diamonds and hearts

2H - 6 card heart suit

2S - 6 card spade suit

2NT - Minors

 

Answers by partner according to Lionel

 

Similar to Lionel, 1NT replaces is used instead of Dbl, the reason being,

that you should kill space, when they open artificial on the one level

 

Dbl should also be used rarely, because it wil give them a additional

step (RDBL). If you use it, it should be possible, to preempt and take

away the space.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Free]

Normal overcalls are constructive (around 8-14, but may be weaker when partner passed already), so weak is really weak! ;)

 

Dbl = 15+ any (Power Double)

1♦ = 5+♥

1♥ = 5+♠

1♠ = 44+♦-♣

1NT = 44+♠-♥ OR 5+m

2♣ = 44+♣-M

2♦ = 44+♦-M

2M = 5+M weak!

2NT = 55+m weak!

[Chamaco]

Normal overcalls are constructive (around 8-14, but may be weaker when partner passed already), so weak is really weak! ;)

 

Dbl = 15+ any (Power Double)

1♦ = 5+♥

1♥ = 5+♠

1♠ = 44+♦-♣

1NT = 44+♠-♥ OR 5+m

2♣ = 44+♣-M

2♦ = 44+♦-M

2M = 5+M weak!

2NT = 55+m weak!

Ty Frederick ! :)

 

Using this scheme, what would be the bid having:

 

♠xx♥Axx♦AKQxx♣xxx

[Free]

Ty Frederick ! :)

 

Using this scheme, what would be the bid having:

 

♠xx♥Axx♦AKQxx♣xxx

1NT, I have 5+♦s ;)

 

Remark: it might be better to swap the 1NT and 1♠ meanings, so responder can show his handtype better when he has a minor or both Majors.

[david_c]

Against Polish, or any other system where 1♣ is forcing, I like this:

 

X/1♦ = 5+ hearts / spades, constructive and unlimited

1♥/1♠/1NT = two-suiters - colour / rank / odd, less than an opening

2♣ = either constructive with (5)6+ clubs, or weak with diamonds.

2♦ = constructive with (5)6+ diamonds. [Could add a weak option to this too.]

2M+ = pre-emptive, fairly aggressive

 

With a good balanced hand, or a good minor-oriented hand not suitable for 2m, I'd start with a pass.

 

The two-suiters are useful both because they get in the way when the opponents have most of the strength, and also as a good start to defensive bidding if opener has a minimum balanced hand. (You're basically getting your DONT bid in before they have a chance to bid 1NT.)

 

I wouldn't play this against a non-forcing short club. Then we play normal methods, except that double is major-oriented (doesn't promise anything in diamonds). I would usually play (1♣):2♣ as Michaels, but natural is OK - the important thing is to have discussed this explicitly!

[Gerben42]

Which of these bid is "nuisance" (does not guarantee constructive values) and which is geared to a constructive auction ?

 

All the bids up to 2♣ are constructive.

2♦ and 2NT: either weak or strong (medium strength hands bid suits up the line)

All other weak.

[awm]

Interesting that Free (who seems to believe suction doesn't work against strong ♣) is advocating transfer-oriented overcalls of Polish club. Not sure what the difference is here...

 

Anyways, suction has always worked for me and I'm happy to play it over polish club or even "could be short" club. Keep in mind that I don't bid suction with off-shape hands (no bids on 4333 hands, no 4-4 "two-suiters" etc). In addition, I don't normally bid suction with absolute junk, and over an opening that need not be strong like Polish club, it will guarantee the values of a normal overcall. Basically the scheme is:

 

X = 15+ hcp, usually balanced but potentially could be any shape (power double)

1♦ = either a normal ♥ overcall (5+ or a VERY good 4) or ♠+♣

1♥-2♣ = similar, either the suit above or the two suits beyond that

2♦+ = either the suit above, or two above that; these are preemptive bids much like WJOs

1NT = two non-touching suits, could be 4-5 (5 in the lower), reasonable values

2NT, 3NT, etc = preemptive, two non-touching suits, will be 5-5, 5-6, etc w/ vuln in mind

 

After a suction overcall, responder's bids are mostly pass/correct. There are a few calls added in order to show values:

 

NT bids = deny a fit for the one-suited option, show values corresponding to appropriate NT level

Raise of the bid suit (i.e. the suit overcaller cannot have) = inv+ with fit for the single suiter, or GF (basically this takes the place of a cue)

 

After constructive advances of NT/cue, two-suited overcallers bid the lower of the suits (if minimum, this is NF) or the higher of the suits (if max). One-suited overcallers can pass with a min (if partner bid NT) or bid the single suit at the cheapest available level. Any other call (i.e. jump bid in the single suit, NT bid, raise of the cue suit) shows a single-suited max.

 

With regard to two-suiters, typically the shape requirement is 5+ in the lower suit and 4+ in the higher.

[inquiry]

Agaist polish club, I use my standard defense against a strong club. Yes, RHO might not be strong, but if I don't know, neither does his partner. Here DBL=clubs, blah.. maybe something is better... might try any three suiter.... 1♦ and 1♥ are transfers, 1♠ and 1NT arre raptor (spades and minor, and then hearts and minor), 2 bids are suction like.

 

Against short club, I use nothing special (I do like raptor).

[mike777]

Just read this in an older book and thought I would post for discussion.

Defense against any artificial openings in case the opp spring something on you that you and pard have not discussed.

 

x=spades and another suit.

minor suit bid=hearts and bid minor.

rest=natural.

[Guest Jlall]

I don't think suction is very useful for constructive bidding. For instance (1C)-1D-(p)-1S being pass or correct is very harmful to constructive bidding such as finding 5-3 or 6-3 spade fits when responder doesnt have that many points. Also when the auction gets competitive, things can really get awkward. Also with 5 hearts and 4 diamonds do you show a 1 suiter or a 2 suiter? If you overcall 1N then you have the problem of getting to the right suit. You said min requirements are typically 5 of lower 4 of higher (minimum) so with 5 hearts and 4 clubs I'll assume you overcall 1D. How do you later show clubs and have partner know that you are not holding spades and clubs? How do you get to a club fit? Also, you lose a natural 1N overcall and the 1D overcall.

[the hog]

As most of the time the Polish 1C opening is a weak NT hand, it its fatuous to play artificial defences to it Mauro - X is takeout, M oriented.

 

If you want to play something mildly amusing, play the Warsaw 1D overcall, which we used over all 1C openings, 1D = Ds or Ms, paradox responses.

[Guest Jlall]

was thinking some more about suction vs polish club...some other issues:

 

If you actually have the suit partner bid youre in a real mess. Say you have diamonds and it goes (1C)-1D...you have to bid some amount of NT or make a p/c bid. We would never be able to find a fit. If I had Qxxx x AKxxxx xx I wouldn't like not being able to show my diamonds.

 

If you have say, 5 hearts, and partner bids 1D you wont be able to jam their auction (unless you also had a fit for a black suit) if you had a fit.

 

If you have say, 4 hearts and 10 points, and partner overcalled 1D the system bid would be to cuebid 2D. But if partner had 4-5 in the blacks this could easily land you too high.

 

Over 1C-1N, the only way to show values would be 2N? This seems bulky.

[awm]

Some of the issues Justin mentions with suction do come up. However, it works a lot better than one might expect. Some of the advantages:

 

(1) A lot of the two-suiters are extremely difficult to show in standard methods. Bidding them this way allows us to reach a good fit fairly quickly. Other approaches to showing two-suiters usually involve substantial sacrifices as well (i.e. have to double with takeout or with 15+ flat playing raptor, lose WJO playing overcall structure, etc).

 

(2) While there is a small amount of "confusion" when you can't raise overcaller's suit directly, it is very rare not to have a fit for one of the two-suited options when partner has the one-suited hand. This means one-suited overcalls usually get raised right away when they should be raised.

 

(3) The opponents are subjected to a great deal of confusion as well. They also have no "natural cuebid" available. Even the meaning of double is unclear. Obviously some opponents will be more prepared for these methods than others.

 

(4) Holding length in the overcall suit, responder can pass. This is frequently the best action and causes a great deal of issues for opponents. Since the one-suited option is more frequent than the two-suited anyway, when responder is short in the one-suited option it's a good bet that's what overcaller has.

 

(5) While showing values after the 1NT overcall can be awkward, it's hard to even show the hands that overcall 1NT using most other methods, isn't it?

 

(6) Showing strong distributional hands is much easier. Since the suction bids are "almost forcing" you can simply show your suits and then take another call when partner bids pass/correct. Strong one-suiter with hearts for example starts with 2♦, then bids 3♥ over partner's 2♥ or double (cards) when opponents compete. This is much easier than in standard methods where you have to double initially and then try to come in with hearts (probably over opponents spades) later on (or make a nonforcing 1♥ call and hope for the best).

 

As for finding a fit in spades after a 1♥ overcall... this auction is pretty rare anyway. You need overcaller to have exactly three spades (with four we show a two-suiter and with two he wouldn't raise). So yeah, in principle we are in trouble when all of: overcaller has 3 spades, advancer has 5 spades, we have values only to make a partial, and the opponents will sell to 2♠ if we bid it. I think this series of events is not as frequent as you make it out to be. In fact often it's fine to "accept the transfer" to the single-suited option and bid the spades later (or takeout double later) when the opportunity arises. No one sells to one-level partials these days anyway.

[Guest Jlall]

I agree that causing confusion for them is the main advantage of suction. That's why I like to use it (or better, psych) over strong clubs. I think that it is much more common against strong clubs because you are losing out on constructive auctions with it. This is not that bad against a strong club, but against a hand that is usually a weak NT I think you are giving up a lot just to confuse them.

 

As to your other points:

 

4) Yes he can pass with not many values, but the problem arises if he has the suit cuebid plus some values. Then he can't show it (immediately anyways).

 

5) ehh... I usually overcall 1N with them :P I think the most common defense to polish club (or at least what I was told to play when we played Poland) was bids=natural X=takeout basically with emphasis on the majors.

 

6) Not sure I understand. Wouldn't 2D be like a weak jump overcall in hearts if it had hearts in it? If it can also be strong I'm not sure how partner would be able to evaluate initially and up the preempt.

 

I don't agree the 1S bidder would have to have 3 spades and partner have 5. It could also be a 6-2 fit. Overcaller could also be 4-6 in the majors (I assume you'd show a 1 suiter). It could also be ANY suit not just spades. This doesn't seem that unlikely, though I could be overestimating the chances of it occurring.

 

I also agree they usually will not sell out at the 1 level. The problem is suction works WORSE when the opps are bidding. For instance, with 6 spades you would complete the transfer to hearts and later bid spades. But often the auction will be back at the 3 level before you can now bid spades. You have no idea if partner has a fit or not. If the auction were to start 1C-1D-2D if 2S=p/c then how would you ever be able to show spades. You lose the ability to preempt once again. What if the auction started 1C-1D-p-1H-2D. With spades and clubs do you have to bid 2S? With hearts do you have to bid 2H? If you would often pass with minimum ranges and EITHER of these hand types, will partner ever know which hand type you have?

[awm]

So RHO opens polish ♣ and you hold:

 

xx

KQxx

xx

KQxxx

 

Let's see what your options are. I suppose you can overcall 1NT natural, but I wouldn't vouch for your results playing this. You can overcall 1♥, but partner will never get your relative suit lengths right and you're unlikely to find a club fit successfully. If 2♣ is natural, you can bid that, but I wouldn't bet on finding the hearts. This problem is solved by 1NT showing two non-touching.

 

1♣-2♦ shows either hearts, or the black suits. If it's hearts it's normally 6♥. If black suits probably 5-5 to be bidding at the two level. However, we don't preempt and then bid again, so if the auction proceeds 1♣-2♦-Pass-2♥-Pass, preempter will pass with hearts. With a good hand and hearts, overcaller can now bid 3♥ (or 2NT) and that will be unambiguous. Similarly 1♣-2♦-2♠-Pass-3♠-X (takeout/cards) shows a good hand with hearts. If opponents have actually bid to the three level in overcaller's five-card spade suit, we have already won the board (everyone else will be overcalling some number of spades, or some two-suited bid which specifically shows spades) and so we pass.

 

I don't see where you're going with overcaller having two spades and responder six. If opponents compete you won't find spades; first off overcaller's LHO will often bid and this could shut out the misfitting spade hand. Even if not, you could have some auction like 1♣-1♥-Pass-1♠-1NT (18-20 or whatever)-Pass-Pass and advancer is at a guess whether to compete to 2♠. This is not so different from 1♣-1♦ (suction)-P-1♥-1NT-P-P where overcaller is at the same guess whether to compete to 2♠.

 

If the auction shows 1♣-1♥-2♦, can I really show spades? Am I going to bid them on a weakish hand with no heart fit? Perhaps you would, but this looks to me like an auction where I'm likely to go for a number.

 

After 1♣-1♦-P-1♥-2♦, I would never bid with hearts. Partner has advertised no fit for hearts. With both black suits, I would bid. The reasoning is, I have rather few hearts (rarely even 3 hearts if I'm 5-5). Partner has relatively few hearts, since the 1♥ bid almost denies three-card hearts and surely denies four. Odds are that opponents have at least nine hearts, so we must have a fit somewhere and I feel safe to bid. I'd double for takeout with 4♠ and 5♣, and bid 2♠ with a 5-5.

[Guest Jlall]

So RHO opens polish ♣ and you hold:

 

xx

KQxx

xx

KQxxx

 

[...]This problem is solved by 1NT showing two non-touching.

I'm not sure forcing to the 2 level with this hand is "solving" a problem. You could easily go for a number. Even if I played raptor and they opened 1S I would not bid with this hand. Your point is taken, though, make the hand stronger and you have indeed solved a problem hand type.

 

However, we don't preempt and then bid again, so if the auction proceeds 1♣-2♦-Pass-2♥-Pass, preempter will pass with hearts.

 

I guess this would show a hand that normally Xs and bids again? Makes sense but not sure how this is a "gain."

 

Even if not, you could have some auction like 1♣-1♥-Pass-1♠-1NT (18-20 or whatever)-Pass-Pass and advancer is at a guess whether to compete to 2♠. This is not so different from 1♣-1♦ (suction)-P-1♥-1NT-P-P where overcaller is at the same guess whether to compete to 2♠.

 

Knowing that you do not have a 6-3 fit is a pretty big difference. If you do you will pretty much always need to bid, but in the first auction you will know that if partner had 3 spades he would raise. That's the difference with these auctions (to me), one guess is more educated.

 

 

If the auction shows 1♣-1♥-2D, can I really show spades? Am I going to bid them on a weakish hand with no heart fit? Perhaps you would, but this looks to me like an auction where I'm likely to go for a number.

 

You have really never had the auction 1C-1H-2D-2S? Wow, but if you had a lot of spades I'm sure you'd be interested in bidding them. KQTxxxx x Ax xxx is both a possible hand and a reasonable one to want to bid on. I would be willing to bet you have bid 2S before on an auction that started this way too.

 

 

My problem with raptor is not that it has no gains, it obviously does (confusing them, and raptor hand type it seems). It just seems that the losses constructively do not outweigh the gains. But that is why bridge is so great, we all get to make that decision ourselves.

[inquiry]

My problem with raptor is not that it has no gains, it obviously does (confusing them, and raptor hand type it seems). It just seems that the losses constructively do not outweigh the gains. But that is why bridge is so great, we all get to make that decision ourselves.

Cake and too situation...

 

I have natural bids (well for major with transfer) at one level, and two flavors of raptor). The two level bids are weak with six plus in transfer suit, or 5-5 variable stregnth.

 

(1♣) - 1♥ = shows spades for sur spades... so can show them at one level

(1♣) - 1♠ = raptor, shows spades and a minor, minor longer usually

(1♣) - 2♣ = six diamonds, or major two suit

(1♣) - 2♦ = six hearts, preemptive, or 5-5 in black suits

(1♣) - 2♥ = preemptive with ♠ or two suiter

(1♣) - 2♠ = 5♠+5♦, i tend to use raptor with this hand a lot too.

 

Immediate three level are normal preempts...

 

Seems workable imho, and paradox raises work very nice.. for instance,

 

(1♣) - 2♦ - (dbl) - 3♥ <<---- heart support and ♣ or ♠ support.

[Guest Jlall]

meant to play my problem with suction, lol.

[Free]

Interesting that Free (who seems to believe suction doesn't work against strong ♣) is advocating transfer-oriented overcalls of Polish club. Not sure what the difference is here...

Polish 1♣ is usually a weak NT. So no need to bid destructively, constructive and the possibility to find a decent partscore contract or game is much more important. Transfer overcalls don't use too much space and give opponents extra bids (but when partner supports you're as far as after a normal overcall), but taking an entire level away to show both minors is a lot more usefull than using 1♦ to show this type of hand. That's why we use transfers...

 

I also didn't say suction doesn't work against strong ♣, I just mentioned that pairs with good agreements won't get the damange that suction suggests. Note that I use this against strong 2m openings.

[Chamaco]

Interesting that Free (who seems to believe suction doesn't work against strong ♣) is advocating transfer-oriented overcalls of Polish club. Not sure what the difference is here...

I think Free was basically replicating the structure of Moscito Openings, using X as a substitute fotr "strong-ish" 1C.

 

He already has a built-in framework for bidding constructively over that, so I am not shocked by his proposal :-)

[Free]

Wrong Chamaco :) It's a combination of our overcalls after a natural 1♣ opening and an overcall structure over strong NT. Basicly we use Power Doubles and describe our hand (showing the 4 cards or longer) immediatly with the normal takeout hands (and with the ones which are a little weaker). After natural openings we show the suits immediatly (only 3 useful possibilities), but after an artificial opening we have to use other bids as well.

 

Overcalling has nothing to do with MOSCITO, however it uses the same response structure over the 2♦ overcall, but not after others...