Another 4D 5C hand! Rebid?

[Gerben42]

[hv=d=y&v=n&s=sak5hadq854cq9862]133|100|Scoring: IMPs[/hv]

 

Edit: commenting is allowed of course ;)

Edited September 19, 2005 by Gerben42

[Chamaco]

1NT, IMO the least-of-evils shape distortion, and right on values.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

1C .... 2C, ugly, but anything

else does not appeal to me.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[inquiry]

Open 1NT... and not overly happy about it.

[hrothgar]

<!-- ONEHAND begin --><table border='1'> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <td> Dealer: </td> <td> You </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Vul: </td> <td> None </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Scoring: </td> <td> IMPs </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> <table> <tr> <th> <span class='spades'> ♠ </span> </th> <td> AK5 </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='hearts'> ♥ </span> </th> <td> A </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='diamonds'> ♦ </span> </th> <td> Q854 </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='clubs'> ♣ </span> </th> <td> Q9862 </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td>  </td> </tr> </table><!-- ONEHAND end -->

 

Edit: commenting is allowed of course :unsure:

Good choice of hands...

 

I voted for 1D followed by 2C

 

I don't have a problem opening 1NT with this shape, however, the the hand seems flawed. This is a borderline 15-17 NT opening. The hand is a dead minimum 15 count. (yes, the Aces and the King are nice, but the singleton Ace isn't pulling full weight). Accordingly, after 1m - 1♠ I have an easy raise to 2♠ without significantly distorting my strength.

 

The next issue is what to do after 1m - 1♥. I see two reasonable options. A 1NT rebid doesn't strike me as terrible. The strength is approximately correct. While you only have a singleton in support of Hearts, it is the singleton Ace. Even so, I don't really like the NT rebid. As I noted earlier, with lots of controls it seems best to steer the hand towards a suit contract.

 

The final point that needs to be considered is which minor suit rebid is nebulous. Some systems (most notably K-S) use a rebid in a minor as a nebulous rebid. A K-S player would open 1♣ with this hand and rebid 2♣ promising 5+ Clubs and denying a bunch of other stuff. Playing K-S, the auction 1♦ - 1M - 2♣ is virtually forcing and can conceal a number of strong hand types. Other systems lump a lot of garbage hands in the auction 1♦ - 1M - 2♣ and reserve the minor suit rebid for more constructive hands. Polish Club is an extreme example of this type of system. Playing Polish Club, the 2m rebid shows the intermediate strength single suited club hand (~ 15 - 18 HCP)

 

Personally, I'm more comfortable with the second style. Accordingly, I'd open 1♦ and rebid 2♣. However, I wouldn't fault a 1NT opening, or a 1♣ opening intending to rebid 1NT. (As I said, the hand is right on the border)

[cherdano]

Let me confess. I am one of the two (so far) 1♣-then-1NT voters. Maybe I am going too far in downgrading, but I really hate this honor distribution. Also, good things may happen if I open 1♣, i.e. whenever partner does not respond 1♥, I am glad.

 

Nice problem hand, Gerben.

 

Arend

[Guest Jlall]

I open 1C then rebid 1N. I don't consider this far off in terms of evaluation (it is a pretty horrid 15) and it diminishes our chances of playing a 5-1 heart fit greatly. Could live with a 1N opener. 1D then 2C seems too flawed, even if I liked doing it on 4-5, bidding 2 suits where i have 4 of my 15 points is not appealing. 1C then 2C on Qxxxx also does not appeal. 1C then 1S is weird but could work well, but I would like a more suit oriented hand to try that.

[Echognome]

I'm opening 1♣ and rebidding 1NT. For starters, responder may not end up bidding 1♥ and then I will feel much better placed in the auction. Second, if responder is weak with 5 hearts, then 1NT will make it the most likely that we will play there. Third, if partner responds 1♥, then I will only rate my hand as a weak NT.

[Al_U_Card]

At imps, all white, are we looking to find the safest contract or the one that gives the most bang for the buck? How does this alter our process for catering to the types of hand(s) that pard can have?

 

Since no toy for this hand is allowed (in this, or almost any other, problem like this) what is pard most likely to hold based on the opps silence? How do we fare opposite the random 7 count?

 

Opposite the 3433 with 7 hcp, the 1C-2C rebid seems to be the winner over 1D-2C (no preference back to D to play the Moysian with the tap in the wrong hand).

 

Any no trump bid or rebid will get passed out and we could take as few as 3 tricks and as many as 6 maybe 7.

 

For this reason, unless my frequency-minded friends have exact numbers to indicate a more likely outcome, I gotta go with 1C-2C and let them balance in 2S, if they dare.

[pclayton]

1♣ then 1N.

 

I don't think opening 1N is 'right on values'. This is a mangy 15, with 11 stuffed into the short suits.

 

Also (important) - there's a BIG difference between rebidding 1N with a stiff and opening 1N with a stiff. Don't go out of your way to misrepresent your pattern.

[SoTired]

When I have 4d,5c hands, I usually only open 1D when the diam suit is particularly strong and the club suit is particularly weak. That way, if we defend, I steered partner to a good opening lead.

 

I would not open 1N. The hand should be steered toward a suit contract and I want to give partner the most chance for that. Therefore, I open 1C so I can raise partner's 1D or 1S response and responder can raise my clubs.

 

Once responder bids 1H, I can't rebid the mangy club suit. I can easily downgrade the hand and rebid 1N. If responder rebids 2H, I won't be embassed with my support. I can forget to downgrade and reverse to 2D. I don't like bidding 3-card majors. So I rank the alternatives:

1C 1H 1N = 10

1C 1H 2D = 8

1C 1H 1S = 6

1D 1H 2C = 6

1C 1H 2C = 3

1N = 2

1D 1H 1N = 0 (If you plan on making this bid, you should open 1C)

1D 1H 1S = 0 (If you plan on making this bid, you should open 1C)

 

IMHO, any of the first 4 choices seems reasonable, but the last 4 are wrong.

[mike777]

1nt

[han]

I don't think that 1C followed by 1NT, and 1NT directly are very different strategies, just a matter of hand evaluation. So a great majority votes for this.

[awm]

I don't think that 1C followed by 1NT, and 1NT directly are very different strategies, just a matter of hand evaluation. So a great majority votes for this.

Not quite the same. I will virtually never open 1NT with a singleton, but will rebid 1NT quite freely with singleton in partner's suit.

 

Other than hand evaluation, the main issue is where we will end up when partner is minimum. If I open 1NT, there are two bad things that can happen: partner can transfer to my singleton suit and leave me there (usually 5-1 fit is not the best spot) or partner can raise to 3NT when we really should be playing five or six of a minor (i.e. partner has three small opposite my stiff ace and a minor suit fit).

 

When I open a minor and rebid 1NT, I'll only rebid 1NT when partner bids my singleton suit. This greatly reduces the chance of playing a "bad" 3NT where opponents run my singleton suit since partner holds length and likely some values there. Also, I don't expect partner to correct to 2M very often after 1m-1M-1NT when holding only five. Obviously this is a matter of partnership agreement, but since my partnerships have the agreement to rebid 1NT frequently on singleton (and raise often on three cards) this will normally work out.

[SoTired]

There is a big difference between opening 1N and opening 1C and rebidding 1N after a 1H response. Opening 1N gives up on playing a minor suit contract or playing a 4-3 spade fit. It is masterminding when you don't have a clue about partner's hand. You assume that partner will respond 1H and open 1N to mitigate that. If you are strong enough to open a 15-17 1N, you are strong enough to open 1C and reverse into 2D with a 5431.

[hrothgar]

>If you are strong enough to open a 15-17 1N, you are strong enough to

>open 1C and reverse into 2D with a 5431.

 

Comment 1: Most standard systems require significantly more strength to reverse than to open a 15-17 HCP 1NT. Suggesting other is taking a MAJOR position...

 

>Opening 1N gives up on playing a minor suit contract or playing a 4-3 spade fit

 

Comment 2: Most well designed response structures have mechanisms that permit responder to steer the contract to 3m. Opener has typically relinquished captaincy, however, this most certainly does not exclude 4♠, 5m, or 3m contracts...

[SoTired]

1: A reverse requires more than 17? I was under the impression that min reverse was about 16, which this hand is only a little lite.

 

2: Even using a good response structure, after opening 1N, I think getting to 3m or 2S if responder has something ordinary and weak like xx Qxxx Kxx Jxxx, xx Qxxx KJxx xxx, or QJxx xxx Kx xxxx will be very difficult.

[Guest Jlall]

1: A reverse requires more than 17? I was under the impression that min reverse was about 16, which this hand is only a little lite.

a min reverse in terms of high cards would be a very good 16. You would want either 6-4 good suits or some kind of fit for responders suit. If you have something like a stiff in partners suit, some 17s really arent reverses (though often you are forced to). Another thing thats very important in reverse and jumpshift auctions is suit quality. You obviously have terrible suits here. If partner is thinking of going slamly he would be disappointed. In my estimate, this hand is about a king light of a reverse.

[cf_John0]

IMO,the best is 1D then 2C:

1,1D open is better than 1C or 1NT,because of the 4card Diamonds and single Heart;

2,2C rebid is better than 1NT(too strong to simple rebid) or 2NT(there are more cases from PD)

[ABadPlayer]

I'm not fond of 1♦-2♣ with only 4 hcp in the minors. If I'm going to distort my shape in that manner then I would at least like to have a fairly decent 4 card ♦ suit if not the majority of my points in the minors.

 

I'm also certainly not going to rebid that moth eaten 5 card ♣ suit.

 

I wouldn't object to strongly to a NT opening, but since it is a bare minimum I'd feel a little better about simply opening 1♣ and then rebidding 1NT.

[adhoc3]

Glad to be the 1st voted 1♦-1NT, lol.

 

1♦ opening maybe mindless, strength not enough for reverse(both hcp and suit quality), so I cant open 1♣. PD's 1♥ was a bad news so I decided not to mention my ♣ anymore, OOOOOPS, why dont open a longer suit if I proposed to to hide another? :)

 

But no need worry!

 

1) PD 2NT invite, 3NT accept with no hesitation;

2) PD 2♣ CBS or NMF, which he is quite comfortable, easy 2♠;

3) PD 2♦ or pass, fine, wait opps' balance;

4) PD ................

 

Those ♣s are too ugly to mention after your 1♥, partner, that's not my fault.

 

 

 

Queston To: 1C opener

 

What would you bid if your pd's responce was not 1♥, but 1NT?

Edited September 21, 2005 by adhoc3

[Fluffy]

The bare Ace makes the hand downgrade, so we aren't strong enoguh to reverse nor to open 1NT, we have 2 options:

 

open 1♣ and after the bad news of 1♥ rebid 1♠.

 

 

open 1♦ foreseeing partner will bid 1♥ and rebid 2♣.

 

Both seem sensible, suit quality makes me think first is better.

[Chamaco]

A further question on the evaluation of such hand types.

 

I agree it's a marginal 15 count: downgradeable for the stiff Ace, and slightly upgradeable for the 5 card suit and the Q98 cluster in the 5 card suit (that's why I reevaluated it as a 15 count).

 

The question is related to my habit of "systematically upgrading" bad 15 hcp (and often very good 14 count) to a 1NT opening whenever I do not have a 4 card major: I do this in order to make it harder for opps to compete if they have the majors.

 

Any thoughts about this habit ? (Please be nice ;) )

[Al_U_Card]

A further question on the evaluation of such hand types.

 

I agree it's a marginal 15 count: downgradeable for the stiff Ace, and slightly upgradeable for the 5 card suit and the Q98 cluster in the 5 card suit (that's why I reevaluated it as a 15 count).

 

The question is related to my habit of "systematically upgrading" bad 15 hcp (and often very good 14 count) to a 1NT opening whenever I do not have a 4 card major: I do this in order to make it harder for opps to compete if they have the majors.

 

Any thoughts about this habit ? (Please be nice  :) )

If you could show your hand to pard (oops, isn't that what bidding is all about?) would he agree with your estimation/re-evaluation? That should be the criterion. When he gets what he expects he will be a lot happier with the final contract.

 

Personally, I only upgrade or downgrade hands that "qualify" for typical bids, not the exceptions. Too many cooks spoil the broth.....

[Chamaco]

If you could show your hand to pard (oops, isn't that what bidding is all about?) would he agree with your estimation/re-evaluation?  That should be the criterion.

LOL !

Sure, that applies to every upgrade/downgrade/offshape bid :-)

 

Let's say that *if my pard did it* I would not have anything to object (for us, hands with stifff honors are treated as balanced routinely), ;)

but I am asking the opinions of the BBF friends here, later I'll discuss it with pard ! :lol: