You make the call...

[inquiry]

Imps, both vul. You deal. The bidding has gone...

 

You Partner

Pass 1 C

1 H 2 H

?

 

You hold...

 

S-KJx

H-9xxx

D-AJTxx

C-x

 

This is an alternative question for one that showed up on rgb, so it will look familiar to some people here. You are playing bland 2 over 1 game force, 5 card majors. Rate the following bids, give the highest score to the bid you would have made at the table. If any of these bids are silly, feel free to just ignore it or give it 0 or even minus number.

 

Pass -

2S -

2N -

3D -

3H -

3N -

4C -

4D -

4H -

[Free]

Pass = ridicoulous bid! You have a great hand

3C = can be right if you play short suit trial

3D = my bid: help/long suit trial

all other bids don't apply I guess

[luis]

1st of all objection to the 1h bid with a good 5 card diamond suit and horrible hearts I'd have bid 1d now if pd bids 1h I have an easy 2h rebid.

I wonder why people think that they must bid a 4 card major always first....

 

Pass - 50 : Can be right if you have no game.

2S - 30: Showing values in spades as a game try if pd has 4 spade cards 4s may be your best game.

2N - 40: Dooubtful call.

3D - 60: Values in diamonds as a game try I guess.

3H - 20: Invitational without describing your hand at all

3N - 10: A guess

4C - 0: Splinter in pd suit is not a good move.

4D - 0: We don't have short diamonds.

4H - 80: If it goes down it goes down......

[inquiry]

Yes, luis, I object to the 1H bid as well, but as you know, as you responded to this hand in the rgb, 1H is what this hand bid first, then it made a second bid... I think both this hands bids were wrong at the table... This is just to see what people would bid after the 2H raise with this hand...

 

Ben

[Free]

I wonder why people think that they must bid a 4 card major always first....

 

In the system I play, it would make some hands a problem (modified polish club where 1C-1D-1M shows only 3+M).

 

But generaly they make a difference in the biddings. If you bid D and show a 4-card major later, you have at least an invitational hand (so 1C-1D-1M-2M = 10-11 HCP), and the other way around it's normal. The problem there is that you can't show 5-4 M-D for sure (4-5 and 4-6 are also possible), but if you play checkback it helps a lot (but thats normally invitational or better)... Rebid your major with a 5-card is an option then, but you cant show your 4+D then.

[mishovnbg]

Hi Ben!

2NT: inv for 3NT - 70

4HE: guess - 50

Other: 0

Note: 3HE is impossible for me, because I play it as preempt.

Misho

[irg20]

Thanks for posting this interesting problem.

 

First up I will assume that, if I were an unpassed hand then partner would be entitled to raise 1H to 2H with only 3 card support. I appreciate that this might not be everone's cup of tea but will carry on regardless.

 

The fact that I am a passed hand significantly alters the conditions of the auction as, with a minimum hand that is uninterested in game opposite a passed partner and 3 or 4 card H support then opener could have passed.

 

Cases where opener only has 3 card support seem to be limited to hands where opener is 1345, 1336 and 3316 (or possibly 4315 with a spade suit partner didn't want to mention) and has about 14-15 points.

 

Thus opener will deliver 4 card support more often than when I am an unpassed hand.

 

In spite of all this talking up of openers hand I would tend to pass:

 

My trump suit is of poor quality and I only have 4 trumps (possessing a 5th trump would make invitational action significantly safer I think).

 

I have a small singleton in parters suit (and though he might be relatively short in C he is still more likely to have values there than elsewhere).

 

Assuming we have a relatively aggressive style of inviting, partner has already passed up the opportunity to bid an invitational 3D or 3H, so he cannot have such a great hand.

 

This suggest that the hand is a relatively poor 9 count.

 

For this reason I too would bid 1D initially as I don't really want partner raising 1H with three card support and feel that the uncontested auction p - 1C - 1D - 1H - 2H is a better description of what I have than p - 1C - 1H - 2H - any bid).

[the hog]

Playing Walsh style, 1H

 

I wonder why people think that they must bid a 4 card major always first

 

Because in certain systems and styles it is systemic! (eg Polish Club, modern Italian systems, Walsh structure etc etc). If a bid is systemic, and you don't make it, you are violating your system. There are a great many theorists who believe that Walsh style responses are more efficient. (Even on 2345). You can argue that you don't like Walsh, but that is another thread altogether.

 

Pass over 2H is automatic. Why would you wish to make a game try with this, particularly with your singleton C, and also as opener does not necessarily promise 4 card support if his hand is unbalanced? I totally agree with the comments made by irg20

 

Ron

[mishovnbg]

Hi Ron, you must make game try, because for game you will earn more than for score :). And because with such distribution and hcp 3th level is enough secure. As we say: "If somebody is afraid from bears, must not go to forest for mushrooms" :)

 

Hand in example:

S-KJx

H-9xxx

D-AJTxx

C-x

 

Possible hands for games:

 

1. 3NT

 

68% game - enough for slam percentage

Qx

xxxx

KQx

AKxx

 

34% - enough good for game

Qx

xxxx

Kxx

AKxx

 

2. 4HE

 

68%

Qx

AKxx

KQx

xxxx

 

34%

Qx

AKxx

Kxx

xxxx

 

 

Misho

[the hog]

Misho, all the hands you present are close to perfect hands with no wasted C values. What are the odds of opener having these hands after a 1C opening. Fairly remote I'd say. I bid games more aggressively than most, but still reiterate that this piece of responding cheese is not worth a try.

By the way, my mushrooms are grown in the hothouse.

 

Cheers

Ron

8)

[rtewari]

mishovnbg - I quite like the way the south hand always has Qx of spades :)

 

I guess the vulnerability, surprise side 5 card suit (with ten lending some solidity) and a singletone makes it worth a game try. My choices would be

 

2NT - Partner can decline and bid 3H or raise to 3NT/4H (100%)

Pass - 50%

2S - 20% (Reverse Moysian may be right but does not look too good with spade J in short hand)

Rest - 0%

[Free]

I think you should try for game. You gave a great 9 pointer, a long side suit and a singleton. As long as you don't play Culbertson, you don't need any points in C to open 1C. That's why I'll TRY for game, and not bid it just to see what happens. I assume partner has a 4-card H, because with an unbalanced hand, he has another bid (1S or 2C when weak).

 

Short suit trial might be the best convention here, but I guess not much players play that. Next in line is the long suit trial or help suit trial to find a second fit to help you get 10 tricks (DK or DQ9 might be enough). 2NT is IMO a bad bid, because if you play NT, opponents start to play through the strong hand.

[the hog]

I assume partner has a 4-card H

 

What if partner has

x

AQx

AKx

xxxxxx

You want a 2C rebid?

 

I am staggered that anyone could regard this as a "good" 9 pointer.

[flytoox]

It seems there are always two extrem side, One extremely opitimistic, Free is a typical example:), and one sort of pessimistic, Ron and me:)

 

I think most of time I will simply pass 2H here. If My black suit exchange, then I think I will try for game, but not here. single club is a big hole here. Opp will very likely to lead trump against ur 4h, which can be made only by cross-ruff in my point of view.

 

But since this is IMP and vul., I might try game occasionally by 3D. I rate 3D better than 2N as game try. 2N as game try should imply you have club fit.

[Codo]

Hi all,

 

I agree with free and make a game try. So, I will give 100 % to 2 Spade, which is an inquiry bid about openers hand with all my regular pds. I will get to know the overall strength and 3 or 4 card support and side suit shortness quick enough to stop in 3 Heart.

Without this tool, Iwil bid 2 NT to invite. Pd may understand it as a natural game try and pass or raise to 3 NT, or as a game try in H and bid 3 or 4 H.

 

Both is fine to me.

 

Kind Regards

 

Roland

[luis]

If the system you are playing makes you bid 1h instead of 1d then 2h must show 4 card support or I'd object the whole system as a complete nonsense.

Once I didn't show what I really have and being vulnerable I prefer a shot at 4h than missing the game. Down 1 is not a disaster and missing this game can be.....

[mishovnbg]

I assume partner has a 4-card H

 

What if partner has

x

AQx

AKx

xxxxxx

You want a 2C rebid?

 

I am staggered that anyone could regard this as a "good" 9 pointer.

 

 

Hi Ron!

 

Game try exist to investigate is the partners hand match in my opinion... And good hand, like in my examples are also possible enough, like bad one.

 

In my NTC 2.50 system you MUST raise here to 2HE. You even will play it from side with 3 cards, because I play inverted majors. But in my opinion you must have way to menage same sequence and differ 3 fit from 4 fit. Cantar suggested 3CL and 3DI as nat NF game try with 4 cards in major. Chris and Tom play 2NT relay similar to polish odwrotka - min 3 cards, max 3, min 4, max 4...

 

Misho

[luis]

I suspect that pass maybe the correct bid, I'm sure it is when you don't have a game but as Misho pointed out there're just too many hands that pd may have where you have game. So I think that while pass maybe right in most cases you shouldn't pass due to the game swing you may be losing or winning.

 

That's why I wouldn't pass.

 

Then after a terrible 1h bid I have no way to correctly describe my hand to pd so I don't think a game try can be useful at all, why would you let your pd take a decision when you can't give him the information needed for the decision? That's why I prefer to just blast 4h and see what happens, I don't know what I'm playing but I'm sure this hand is not good for the system and maybe there will be other good hands later....

 

So Misho & co I understand your ideas but just bid 4h, if you bid a game try you just transfer the coin to pd and he still has to flip it to decide whether to play a game or not. You can't show 5 diamonds spade values and club shortness so either you bid 4h or you pass 2h. A game try is worst than pass or 4h in my opinion.

[mishovnbg]

 

...if you bid a game try you just transfer the coin to pd and he still has to flip it to decide whether to play a game or not. You can't show 5 diamonds spade values and club shortness so either you bid 4h or you pass 2h. A game try is worst than pass or 4h in my opinion.

 

Hi Luis!

Reason of make a game try here is your partner can have easy decision. If he havent, he will still can "flip the coin".

Generally is true that you must avoid trial bids. You can lose more by giving opps more info, than by guessing. Also is true, if you dont have enough strength to choose contract, you must just bid statistical good one. So I understand Luis reasons.

But in particular example (Bridge is concrete game), you have too much in side suits and shortness in openers suit CL. This make 3NT preferable contract, but it can be good only with max and adequate cards in p hand. Instead of shooting 4HE is better to make 2NT as nat game try if it is available in your system.

Misho

[luis]

Don't forget Misho that if pd flip the coins and it says "partscore" you can go down in 3h or 2n :-)

That's why I prefer either to pass or shot 4h, there's not enough information to let pd decide wisely so either we play 2h or we win or go down in 4h. But going down in 3h after a non-informative game try is embarrassing....

[inquiry]

Thanks for the replies. I think anyone reading the wide range of options from Ron's "Pass over 2H is automatic", to Louis's direct leap to 4H's stating "being vulnerable I prefer a shot at 4H than missing the game" will marvel at the diverse responses for such a simple auction.

 

Ron and Luis both had one supporter (before my reply). In Ron’s case, it was Flytool, who is also in the pass camp, although fly paid homage to a 3D game try. While Misho was firmly in agreement with Luis. Misho felt the best shot was to give partner a choice between 3NT and 4H with a direct leap to 3NT, although he also gave a high score for immediate 4H. I have to say that, under the conditions of the problem, I fall squarely in with Luis and Misho (and anyone who read my reply to the initial problem on the rec.game.bridge site, would see why).

 

However, the vast majority of players neither passed, nor leaped to game. They instead choose a middle of the road game try. But the type of game tries varied a lot. Free ridiculed 2NT as a game try, but Raj took that as THE right bid, and Luis and Codo gave 2NT high marks (though didn't choose it). Misho also thought 2NT was the best game try if you don't leap to game. 2S got some modest support, except by Codo, who thought it was the right bid.And 3Ds, while getting the most overall votes, only Free gave it the highest score, and only one other potential bid was mentioned, where Free suggested the possibility of a 3C bid.

 

This diversity of answers, I think, show why this hand is an excellent problem. It is an excellent example of how condition of contest affect the auction. Luis alluded to this again and again in his logic for his 4H bid, and irg20 did a wonderful job of pulling in other aspects of the auction, like the fact that you are a passed hand. Here is my take on the hand. There are four specific bits of information that you must take into account before making your second bid (yes, I would have bid 1D with this hand too…but this is a hand from rgb). 1) You are passed hand, 2) Partner opened 3rd seat, 3) This is imps, and 4) you are vul. Each of these should play a role in formulating your reply.

 

First, partner opened third seat. If your partners don’t open occasionally light in third chair maybe you need a new partner. But, as Irg20 noted, the raise to 2H now has either extra values or surely 4 card support. With weak yuck, and three card support, partner will pass 1H. This implication is so strong, I don’t worry about partner having only 3 cards on this specific auction. I myself raise with 3 cards after 1m-1M often, but not nearly as often at all after a third seat opening as P-1m-1M-P is an option.

 

Second, this is imps and we are vulnerable. These two observations have a huge effect on my choice of bids. At MP with this hand, regardless of vul, I am with Ron Lei and Free’s evaluation of this hand, and I would pass. Under those conditions, as Ron say’s, the pass is automatic as there is no need to try to press to get to close games. But at imps, and particularly vulnerable at imps, pass simply is not an option for me. I have change my evaluation of the hand, it is just that I am willing to take more risk to stretch to someone questionable games. At imps, if I was not vulnerable, I would make a game try. Which game try depends a little upon style, but I rate 3D as the best try, followed by 2NT then 2S. HOWEVER, since we a vulnerable, I fall directly, squarely in the camp with Luis and Misho. There is no way I am going to risk playing a partscore with this hand at imps, being vul. Misho’s 3NT bid has a lot to say for it, good stoppers in the unbid suits and very weak heart suit. In all likelihood, partner will pull 3NT to 4H anyway when holding 4. But my bid of choice under these conditions is a direct leap to 4H.

 

   Inquiry   

Pass  0 Pass too risky at imps, especially vul

2S   20   At least they can’t make lead direct dbl

2N   50   Tell partner about side suit stuff

3D   70   Tell partner about good suit

3H   0   I play this as stop bid

3N   70   Good alternative to best bid

4C   -100   Some play splinter in partners suit, not me

4D   0   No slam interest so if fit jump, don’t use it

4H   100   The bid. Make it, vul at imps, what else?

[DJNeill]

Please Misho, systems geeks would love to know where to find the notes to NTC 2.50. Rado won't give it up.

 

Dan

[luis]

After a simulation of 128 hands meeting the conditions described

the results are:

3NT makes 17%

4h makes 42%

 

So while in 58% of the deals you only have a partscore in hearts you MUST bid 4h being vulnerable since 42% is just too much....

[inquiry]

After a simulation of 128 hands meeting the conditions described

the results are:

3NT makes 17%

4h makes 42%

 

So while in 58% of the deals you only have a partscore in hearts you MUST bid 4h being vulnerable since 42% is just too much....

 

The similution agrees with my gut feeling. However, remember, when this hand rebids 3NT, the partner doesn't have to pass. That is, take a look at all the hands and only stay in 3NT when the opener's hand would pass. The actual discrepancy will not be this large. But, again, I agree with 4H, not 3NT despite this comment. After all, partner will overevalute his club holding on many hands when you jump to 3NT.

[hrothgar]

One quick request:

 

If people are running simulations, it would be very useful if there could include a bit more information. At the very least, I'd like to understand:

 

What hand generator was being used

The definition for opener and responder's hands.

The definition for hands 3/4

How did the program estimate the best contract?