Misfitting 11 count

[MickyB]

[hv=d=n&v=e&s=s3haqt984dt7ckq95]133|100|Scoring: IMP

1♠:2♥

2♠:?[/hv]

 

Playing Acol, partner has rebid a non-forcing 2♠, typically showing 11-14 with 5+♠ - we would open most 11 counts and few 10 counts. Do you game-force with 3♣, or invite with 3♥?

[han]

invite.

[whereagles]

3H. The suit is good for an invitation.

[han]

Note that I consider this a sound opening hand, but when partner rebids spades, denies 3-card heart support and shows a minimum, the potential of this hand becomes a lot less.

[Fluffy]

it is pretty close, the suit quality is very good, I think I would trry 4♥ at IMP, only 3♥ at MP.

[Guest Jlall]

4H for me as well...the T98 seduced me. I'm sure 3H is better but this is imps and in real life they sometimes misdefend on auctions like this.

[mike777]

[hv=d=n&v=e&s=s3haqt984dt7ckq95]133|100|Scoring: IMP

1♠:2♥

2♠:?[/hv]

 

Playing Acol, partner has rebid a non-forcing 2♠, typically showing 11-14 with 5+♠ - we would open most 11 counts and few 10 counts. Do you game-force with 3♣, or invite with 3♥?

3C

 

Closer to making slam try than inviting.

[P_Marlowe]

3H

 

Marlowe

[mikeh]

I do not play Acol. Would he open 1♣ with 5-5 in the blacks (some or all of the time? If some, when?).

 

Would 3♣ (rather than 2♠) be a 'high-level reverse'; i.e. extra values, forcing to game?

 

If I knew that he could not be 5-5, then I would invite with 3♥.

 

However, I am influenced by my style which may be misleading here: when partner invites, I accept unless I have reason not to. The converse is to reject unless one has reason to accept. If partner plays that style, then I bid 4♥.

 

If he could be 5-5 (even tho relatively weak, due to the non-bidding of 3♣), I see no reason to give up on 5♣. He might have Axxxx Kx x Axxxx and now 6♣ looks pretty good. I can always get back to ♥ (I think) when that is right. So I would risk the overbid of 3♣ if he could be 5-5 here.

[the hog]

I do not play Acol. Would he open 1♣ with 5-5 in the blacks (some or all of the time? If some, when?).

 

A modern Acol player would open with 1C only if he were prepared to bid 4S over 4H if it came back to him. Old style Acol players will still open 1C

 

Would 3♣ (rather than 2♠) be a 'high-level reverse'; i.e. extra values, forcing to game?

 

Yes

 

I would bid 3H invit and would not be surprised to go off. Uh, a slam try Mike777 ???? Don't think so....

[awm]

Well, if partner is Al Roth then I think a game force is in order. But a lot of players these days seem to have the approach of opening light, distributional hands and forcing to game on light, distributional hands without a fit. I don't think this style works too well, although the players who use it always seem to ascribe their bad results to poor luck (how was I to know he had a void in hearts? so unlucky...)

 

3♥ for me. BTW, for those who are planning to force game, why would you choose 4♥ over 3♣? Couldn't partner be 5-5 in the black suits? I'd say one of the few justifications for forcing game is the guarantee of reaching the right strain although not necessarily the right level.

[HeartA]

3♥ for me. BTW, for those who are planning to force game, why would you choose 4♥ over 3♣? Couldn't partner be 5-5 in the black suits? I'd say one of the few justifications for forcing game is the guarantee of reaching the right strain although not necessarily the right level.

I prefer 3♣ slightly over 3♥. And I surprised to see 4♥ without mentioning ♣s.

[MickyB]

[hv=d=n&v=e&n=skqt42h3dk5cajt32&s=s3haqt984dt7ckq95]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

I bid 3♥, missing a poorish game that most others were in. Of course, the ace of diamonds and KJx of hearts were on side, and should you need it the ace of spades was doubleton onside!

 

Despite the flukiness of 4♥ and 5♣, I wondered if I had underbid - after all, I would have bid the same with any hand with 1-6 in the majors that had wanted to be in game opposite 15-16 balanced, and those spots are very nice.

[mike777]

As a side note, good hand for BART for those who play 2/1.

1S=1NT

2C=2D

2S or (3C)

2S=Deny 2 hearts and often shows around 5=1=3=4 or other distros, with less than 2H, and very good spade suit.

3C=5=0=3=5 or 5=1=2=5 with not great spades.

[MickyB]

Despite the flukiness of 4♥ and 5♣, I wondered if I had underbid - after all, I would have bid the same with any hand with 1-6 in the majors that had wanted to be in game opposite 15-16 balanced, and those spots are very nice.

I've now changed my mind on this - I think a 9 count with 1-6 in the majors should just pass 2S, so 3H is genuinely invitational.

[paulg]

Despite the flukiness of 4♥ and 5♣, I wondered if I had underbid - after all, I would have bid the same with any hand with 1-6 in the majors that had wanted to be in game opposite 15-16 balanced, and those spots are very nice.

Although 4♥ needs a lot, 5♣ would appear to need a lot less. Still worse than 50% of course, but probably ok for a vulnerable game.

 

Paul

[MickyB]

Yes, but we were not vulnerable :lol:

[whereagles]

I think the bidding at table was fine. Misfits are not the sort of hands where overbidding pays off in the long run :)

[mikeh]

As a side note, good hand for BART for those who play 2/1.

1S=1NT

2C=2D

2S or (3C)

2S=Deny 2 hearts and often shows around 5=1=3=4 or other distros, with less than 2H, and very good spade suit.

3C=5=0=3=5 or 5=1=2=5 with not great spades.

I would not bid 1N forcing in a 2/1 system at imps. This is not an 11 count hand... unless you are a walter the walrus thinker :)

 

Replace the ♥109 with the 32 and now we are getting a little closer to a Bart hand.

[han]

Agree, even though I chose not to force to game after 1S-2H-2S, I would make a GF 2H bid playing 2/1. I don't think that this is a contradiction.

[mike777]

Agree, even though I chose not to force to game after 1S-2H-2S, I would make a GF 2H bid playing 2/1. I don't think that this is a contradiction.

Interesting in Acol you do not force to game but with 2/1 and less info you do. In Acol I take the risk and force to game but with 2/1 and less info I prefer a semiforce 1nt :).

 

Perhaps because I hope my Acol partners open more soundly than my 2/1?:)

[han]

You are absolutely right Mike. In the Acol auction I have more information, namely that partner is minimal, no heart support and extra spade length. In 2/1 I have to make a decision right away and I don't have all this negative news yet.

[MickyB]

Agreed Hannie, this is a 2♥ bid playing 2/1. It is just too hard to express your values otherwise.

[Guest Jlall]

This seems like a 2/1 in any system unless you open reallllly light. Even then...its close.

[inquiry]

Agreed Hannie, this is a 2♥ bid playing 2/1. It is just too hard to express your values otherwise.

Now for something completely different (aka an alternative view).... I will try to express it using ZAR but you guys already know this without ever mentioning ZAR.. what do you do with 11 misfit?

 

What would ZAR say? Partner has at least 5♠, we have one, that is a difference of four. We have six hearts, partner rates to have on average 2 or 3, that is difference of 4 or so. And if partner is 5-2 in the majors, there is at least one more difference in the minors, if 6-2 or 5-3, difference of at least two in the minors. So his "mifit points" are in the range of 7 or 8 points.

 

Can you use this? Perhaps. You have 29 ZAR points (11 hcp, 3 Control points, 15 DP). So your partners 25 minimum (he opened ♠), your 29 comes to a minimum of 54 points. This suggest game. On the other hand, if partner lacks hearts, you have to subtract the misfit points (average 8), giving a total of 54-8 = 46.

 

But instead of subtracting the misfit points, you can add them if (and only if), you have a superfit. If you think this way, you might play 1S-3H as invitational with 6 card suit. This way, if your partner happens to hold a heart fit, he will carry on. Without it, he will pass. The DANGER here, however is if partner has ♠ and ♣. You could have a modest ♣ fit (4-4) or a superfit (5-4). Does that make a difference? Well, without superfit, no, not really. If partner has 4♣, according to zar, you get 2 pts for ♣KQ, and 2 points for x of spades (bringing your total to 31). To make 5♣, your partner needs only 26....So, if you bid 3♥, you risk your partner passing with 4 or 5♣ and a minimum hand, which might be just what you need for game in clubs.

 

So, according to ZAR analysis, you should bid 3♥ when you know you have no ♣ fit, and bid 2♥ when you have one. Sigh. Fortunately, I have learned from the foot of the master (Ritong) that the right bid with north is 2♠ (minimum hcp with five plus spades and four plus clubs). So right or wrong, my auction would be...

 

2♠ - 2NT (asking, gf - we might be 6=3 in ♥)

3♣ - 5♣ (3♣ = five clubs), 5♣, well, it turns out not to be so wonderful)

Pass

 

The ZAR point counters would say, partner wth 5-5 in blacks gives you at least 10 misfit points, to go with your original 29 (count fit or misfit points, not both), that comes to 39+25 for partner or minimum 64.. why not blackwood, why not slam. Another advantage of Roman 2♠. It has limited value. Partner with 5-5 (or better), has at least 14 DP, if he has two ACES (12 more) for 26 total, he could not have more than one king. There just isn't enough room in has hand for enough honors (♠AQxxx ♥x ♦Kx ♣Axxxx for example is maximum he could hold in hcp with this bid. So I would try game.

 

BTW, since I play this roman 2♠ bid, if partner opened 1♠, I WOULD bid 3♥ invitational with this hand. The reason being, if partner has ♣ he has extra values, and he will bid again, and if he has ♥ fit, he will not pass. The Roman 2♠ provides some safety in the 3♥ bid with this hand.. reverse the minors, and, sigh, I would have to respond 2♥ as well.... :-(