Managing mean, cruel & unkind players

[Rabbit]

Hiyas...in ACBL tournies and I guess in others one can call the TD to the table to deal with a rude player...however time needs to be spent in a timed event retyping what the rudie said...and for folks like me who really do not type well...more time is taken in relating what was said...how about a copy and paste capacity? I appreciate this might be a programming nitemare...but, I thought I'd ask. Thanks much for any consideration of this matter,,,and thanks very, very much for a really super site.

[inquiry]

You can copy and paste what users said, one line at a time already. Right click on the line you want to copy, and pick copy chat.. then use CNTRL-V to paste it into a chat box.

[Rain]

I think Rabbit was talking about an official way of communication to TD---Actually, why shouldn't chat that was on a table be there for the entire event ?

 

Like during MBC play, if players join later, why not let them see the chat that was there before? This is unimportant for MBC, but in tournaments, TDs may need to decide based on objective facts--having the player copy/paste also defeats that purpose.

[McBruce]

There are privacy issues with use of chat copying:

 

Suppose a TD asks for a copy of the chat logs from one of the players to confirm a rude comment. The TD is essentially trusting that player not to alter the log in any way.

 

Now suppose the player agrees to do so but finds in his chat log that at the time he was talking in private to the other opponent and discussing something other than bridge that (let us say) wouldn't be allowed on NBC. B)

 

Obviously, this player is going to edit out those comments before sending them to the TD. And since this is easily done, the player accused is going to argue that there is no proof if the evidence can be tampered with.

 

If we allow the software to pick up chat, including private chat, we are going to face these potential problems, since now the player's NBC-raw comments are going to be lifted from him and given to someone else.

 

If you adjust the software to only make the public chat available to the TD, you allow hotheads free reign in ripping their opponents in private chat.

 

It's an Epimenedes paradox.

[uday]

To save someone else looking it up:

 

A version of the liar's paradox, attributed to the philosopher Epimenides in the sixth century BC Eric Weisstein's World of Astronomy. "All Cretans are liars...One of their own poets has said so." This is not a true paradox since the poet may have knowledge that at least one Cretan is, in fact, honest, and so be lying when he says that all Cretans are liars. There therefore need be no self-contradiction in what could simply be a false statement by a person who is himself a liar.

A sharper version of the paradox (which has no such loophole) is the Eubulides paradox, "This statement is false." 

 

 

I'm leaning towards the conclusion that logging all chat, private/public is the way to go in the long run, and perhaps sooner than that (with a way to opt out of the logging).

[McBruce]

Thanks Uday! Interesting: I thought the Epimenedes Paradox was the statement "I always lie" but I see that this is a bit of a reduction!

 

 

Anyhow, I should add that I have generally found that when a TD receives a complaint that a public comment has been made from hothead to victim which is unquestionably unacceptable, this is the best way to deal with it:

 

(My tourneys are one board per round indys, so we seem to have more than our share of people trying to get insults in before they move on, despite my repeated announcements that this is going to be dealt with harshly. Of course, the vast majority of players accept the extra Brownian motion that indys inevitably provide.)

 

First you find out the names of the four players at the table. Now you privately ask the other two players if there was a rude comment made. Often, if you make announcements asking that bad behavior be reported, as I do, you will hear about it from one of the other players, not the victim, so you have one confirmation already. In that case you ask the victim and the other player. Sometimes (check flags) you might not be able to get a confirmation due to language barriers.

 

If the comment had two possible meanings, or could have been taken several different ways, or was in the midst of some joking, here you will usually find out about it. But if you have determined that there was a comment made that is out of bounds, the next step is to confront the player who made the comment. I usually send a private message like "I have several confirmations that you made a very rude comment to player x. Is this true?" Go to the table--if the player is trying to make a slam on a squeeze he should get some time before responding. You will usually get one of these types of responses:

 

1) No response after some time. "This is the Tournament Director. I asked you a question about a comment made. Please respond." If there is no response now, treat it as #3:

 

2) Denial. Remind the player that you have confirmation from two or more sources and see if the player changes the plea. If so, it's a #3: next paragraph. If not, up to you who to believe, but I would be careful here. A lot would depend on the specifics of the accusation: if the actual phrase was consistent between the two or three sources then that weighs heavily against the accused; but if they all made a more general complaint without any agreement on what exactly was said you might just warn the player.

 

3) Yes, but I had an excuse. There is no excuse for this; don't listen to excuses. My response here is usually to place the player in the lobby, although if more than three tricks into the play I will delay until the result of the deal is clear. On occasion, when the confirmed and admitted offense is really outlandish (I actually once had a player admit to me that he told his partner publicly to 'gvdl zpv' -- transposed forward one letter -- and then tried to justify this!) I suggest that you let the player continue playing until the last or second last board, watching for further infractions: and then give out the red card. Cruel, but does someone like this deserve better?

 

4) Yes, and I am very sorry, but this is what partner did... No dice. This is a #3.

 

5) Yes, sorry TD, I shouldn't have done it and I make no excuses. This we can work with. If the offense is really bad I will still expel but I may make it a temporary ban. If the offense is bad but not in Ozzie Osbourne's league I will accept this and give a very stern warning.

 

 

When you get a 'number three' and you have to expel, expect the player to kvetch from the lobby. Send one private message: "You have been expelled for unacceptable behavior. Further argument will be reported to abuse." If the player continues to kvetch, ignore. Go back to the tourney and report the player to abuse later.

 

When you have not got enough evidence to expel, make sure you tell the original complainer. Remind that person that they can contact abuse and copy their chat log and BBO will investigate.

 

In the few times that this has occurred, nobody has ever denied faced with evidence that the TD has actually talked to multiple people and confirmed the incident. A few have pretended not to hear or understand, but they generally recover their English skills very quickly when they find themselves in the lobby....

 

Here's a thought: if a person contacts abuse and says "the TD investigated but found insufficient evidence," can the TD be informed if BBO's investigation finds sufficient evidence?

[card_judge]

If you adjust the software to only make the public chat available to the TD, you allow hotheads free reign in ripping their opponents in private chat.

 

What makes anyone think that this doesn't happen in private chat now?

 

♥ ♥ ♥

[Rain]

I suggest make public chat available to TD, but not private chat. This is just for immediate action and to guide the TDs in rulings.

 

But abusive chat should still be sent to abuse for BBO-wide punishment, public or private. (And if BBO still doesn't have the private chat logged, then please take some pictures and email them. Pictures editable, but more difficult to do so)

[pigpenz]

I have been on both sides of the fence for this one...in reality just call the TD and tell them so and so was rude and drop it. let the TD handle it.

 

 

you can always move your chat window off of the screen and then that way you never have to know what anyone is saying. sometimes by even responding to a rude comment you are just adding fuel to the fire....so just grab your mouse and pull the bbo screen half way down the monitor screen and youll never know that they cant stand the way you play or bid and on top of that you wont have to see all those annoying VWPP etc comments.

[Elianna]

I have been on both sides of the fence for this one...in reality just call the TD and tell them so and so was rude and drop it. let the TD handle it.

 

 

you can always move your chat window off of the screen and then that way you never have to know what anyone is saying. sometimes by even responding to a rude comment you are just adding fuel to the fire....so just grab your mouse and pull the bbo screen half way down the monitor screen and youll never know that they cant stand the way you play or bid and on top of that you wont have to see all those annoying VWPP etc comments.

But then you can't see if someone is asking you a question that you may be obliged to answer. This could even get you booted from a tourney, if you "ignore" the TD.

[jillybean]

I have been on both sides of the fence for this one...in reality just call the TD and tell them so and so was rude and drop it. let the TD handle it.

Trouble is the TD cant handle it, unless the person is silly enough to send another rude message when the TD is at the table.

 

The best the TD can do is give the non offender intructions take a screen shot and email abuse (and cc the TD so the person can be added to the ban list).

 

jb

[Elianna]

I have been on both sides of the fence for this one...in reality  just call the TD and tell them so and so was rude and drop it. let the TD handle it.

Trouble is the TD cant handle it, unless the person is silly enough to send another rude message when the TD is at the table.

 

The best the TD can do is give the non offender intructions take a screen shot and email abuse (and cc the TD so the person can be added to the ban list).

 

jb

Even HEARING rude remarks (in person), some TDs can't handle this! :rolleyes:

[pigpenz]

right now about all you can do is right click mouse and copy chat msg and past in when you are talking to TD...that should be about all you have to do.

[jillybean]

right now about all you can do is right click mouse and copy chat msg and past in when you are talking to TD...that should be about all you have to do.

This is not 100% reliable, there is no proof the message is copied from another player and abuse is not notified of the complaint.