Suction vs Strong 1C

[kfgauss]

I play suction vs Strong 1C (and over 1C-1D) with most partners currently. This is:

 

bids = single-suited with the next suit up, or two-suited with the next two suits

(e.g. 1♠ = ♣ or both ♦ & ♥)

 

NT = a non-touching two-suiter -- i.e. ♣&♥ or ♦&♠

 

X is the same as though you'd bid the suit you doubled (so 1C X = ♦ or both ♥&♠)

 

With most partners I play this only at the lowest level (i.e. 2C+ are natural over 1C and 2D+ are natural over 1C-1D), though I've played it "all the way up" with some partners. This isn't really the issue in this post -- it's mostly the (more frequent) 1-level overcalls I'm interested in.

 

These 1-level overcalls allow us to jamb the auction with a pass/correct bid at the two-level frequently, which often gives the big clubbers unhappy guesses (and has the benefit that they're not sure that partner's first bid is actually our suit). I worry, though, about the information we're giving the opponents. The problem is that it's not only information about overcaller's hand that is divulged -- it's information about advancer's hand too: advancer often bids a fragment, and if e.g. the auction goes 1C X P 2S, it's known that advancer has both spades and clubs.

 

This seems very useful to the opponents, especially when they end up in the suit advancer has bid as a fragment and can e.g. finesse partner for the Queen. Maybe they were going to do this anyways once I overcall in some combination of suits that were not that suit, though, but that might argue for not getting into the auction as overcaller very much either. Also, even if they usually finesse partner for side-suit values when I make one of these overcalls, partner's response will help them figure out the relative lengths of my side suits -- perhaps even giving them the entire distribution in some cases, which must be quite useful.

 

Any thoughts on this?

 

Andy

[hrothgar]

I play suction vs Strong 1C (and over 1C-1D) with most partners currently. This is:

 

bids = single-suited with the next suit up, or two-suited with the next two suits

(e.g. 1♠ = ♣ or both ♦ & ♥)

 

NT = a non-touching two-suiter -- i.e. ♣&♥ or ♦&♠

 

X is the same as though you'd bid the suit you doubled (so 1C X = ♦ or both ♥&♠)

 

With most partners I play this only at the lowest level (i.e. 2C+ are natural over 1C and 2D+ are natural over 1C-1D), though I've played it "all the way up" with some partners. This isn't really the issue in this post -- it's mostly the (more frequent) 1-level overcalls I'm interested in.

 

These 1-level overcalls allow us to jamb the auction with a pass/correct bid at the two-level frequently, which often gives the big clubbers unhappy guesses (and has the benefit that they're not sure that partner's first bid is actually our suit). I worry, though, about the information we're giving the opponents. The problem is that it's not only information about overcaller's hand that is divulged -- it's information about advancer's hand too: advancer often bids a fragment, and if e.g. the auction goes 1C X P 2S, it's known that advancer has both spades and clubs.

 

This seems very useful to the opponents, especially when they end up in the suit advancer has bid as a fragment and can e.g. finesse partner for the Queen. Maybe they were going to do this anyways once I overcall in some combination of suits that were not that suit, though, but that might argue for not getting into the auction as overcaller very much either. Also, even if they usually finesse partner for side-suit values when I make one of these overcalls, partner's response will help them figure out the relative lengths of my side suits -- perhaps even giving them the entire distribution in some cases, which must be quite useful.

 

Any thoughts on this?

 

Andy

Playing against competent opps, a 1♦ or 1♥ overcall really doesn't cramp their strong club auction very much. I've typically playing low level overcalls (1♦ - 1♠) as lead directing and start showing 2 suiters with 1NT

[Guest Jlall]

I have a lot of thoughts on this, actually (shocking, I know).

 

I'm very against the standard theory which seems to be "bid with any 13 cards" vs their strong club. If you are bidding with 4-4 or piece of crap 5422's you are not accomplishing anything. Everything is risk reward and you risk going for a number and letting them play double dummy to gain...them not having an uncontested auction. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me. When I play strong club I notice they very fequently bid with nothing, almost like they're compelled to or we'll get to some magical great contract. If they don't get Xed, I ALWAYS appreciate the info they give me, often letting me make my contract. If you are playing against good players, they will certainly use this info to their maximum advantage and frequently know the whole shape at trick 1. If they're weak opps, you don't need to screw up their auctions anyways, they'll do that themselves. I'm not saying suction is bad though, only that it's practicioners often misuse it. When you have the right hand type, it can be used nicely like michaels or unusual 2N. You can find some good saves or even some games (after all you are quite shapely).

 

As for playing suction only at the lowest level, that doesn't really make sense to me. 1C-1S=clubs or the reds, and 1S-2C=clubs? I suppose you get rid of the "clubs" option of 1C-1S, but I'm not sure I understand the rationale.

 

Also, psycho suction is much better than regular suction. I learned this from playing against greco/hampson, who had a very good defense to suction. They basically utilized the fact that they could X the suit and then it can go pass pass. In psycho suction they can't X to show cards then sit for it with like Kx, because it might be your suit. But I digress.

[kfgauss]

Ok, so is KJ98x KJxx x 7xx a double of 1♣ playing your style of suction (ignoring the psycho-suction comment for the moment)?

 

I agree that 4-4's and junky 5-4's shouldn't be bidding.

 

Andy

[mike777]

Learned Suction 18 years ago and it is still my favourite toy :).

Yes, play suction at high levels also.

As for competent strong club players, do not worry about them. They are far and few apart at the table in real life. My guess is maybe 200 pairs worldwide bother to come up with specific defense against Suction and are able to remember it at the table. Rest just use some generic defense and many of them forget it or do not defend at a World Class level.

 

BTW1 over the years the powers that be have allowed, disallowed, allowed and disallowed Suction versus nt..have no idea what the law it today but just wait it will change whatever it is this week.

 

BTW2 try Suction over strong 2Clubs and 2D waiting also ;).

 

Good Luck.

[Guest Jlall]

Ok, so is KJ98x KJxx x 7xx a double of 1♣ playing your style of suction (ignoring the psycho-suction comment for the moment)?

 

I agree that 4-4's and junky 5-4's shouldn't be bidding.

 

Andy

yeah that ones fine since you have the majors. If partner was a passed hand, I would not bid though since it wouldnt accomplish anything most likely. But it could just be our hand for a partscore or a save if hes an UPH.

[david_c]

I'm all in favour of "bid with any 13 cards", as long as the bid you make is 1♠ (or maybe 1♥, at a push). I've played a lot of strong club, and really these 1♠ overcalls are very annoying even though we have a good defence for them. That's not to say that 1♠ should be totally random, just that you want it to be very frequent - so allowing 4-4s and suchlike is a good thing.

 

For overcalls that are not 1♠, you do want more of a reason to bid, and in particular you do have to worry about giving too much information away.

 

Also agree with Justin that psycho suction seems to work better.

[kfgauss]

Playing against competent opps, a 1♦ or 1♥ overcall really doesn't cramp their strong club auction very much.  I've typically playing low level overcalls (1♦ - 1♠) as lead directing and start showing 2 suiters with 1NT

The thing is that it does cramp their style when the auction goes

 

1C X blah 2H

 

and the one clubber needs to find a bid starting at 2H. The main point of suction (at least at the 1-level) to me is that you're giving advancer a shot to bump the auction before it gets back to opener. (Perhaps there are better methods with this specific design criterion, but suction seems decent at it.)

 

I don't have a huge amount of experience playing either method, but I tend to prefer reasonable lead-directing bids in general to random obstruction. Here, though, I've been trying suction out and it does seem give my (reasonably competent) opponents a problems fairly often (in my rather limited experience with it).

 

As for Justin's comments about psycho-suction and the opponents' specific defenses: these comments (about it going X P P etc) are most relevant for the higher bids, not the 1-level overcalls. Also, I agree that 2C = clubs and X = majors or clubs is a bit silly -- perhaps X should just be majors, but the above stuff about the 1-level overcalls was the main point of my post.

 

Andy

 

[edited for bizarre spelling mistake]

[inquiry]

I play a type of suction against strong clubs (and polish club -- when it is alerted)... I got this from Chris Ryall's page, I think was called raptor over big club or Myxoma over big club...

 

DBL is oddly enough clubs, and is rarely used.. mabye both major is better

1♦ is transfer to ♥

1♥ is transfer to ♠

1♠ is raptor with 4♠ (sometimes plus, occassionlly 3 cards), and a longer minor

1NT is raptor but with 4♥ (sometimes 3+, and sometimes more 5♥ and longer minor

2♣ is ♦ or ♠ and ♥

2♦ is ♥ or ♠ and ♣

2♥ is ♠ or ♦ and ♣

2♠ 5-5 in ♠ and ♦ (i often use raptor 1♠ instead if 5-5 weak

[iggygork]

Having played a strong club and a strong diamond system for a few years, my take is that interference with shapely hands cause a lot of problems for the strong artificial opener and the responder thereto as there is no anchor suit that has yet been established and the responder's hand strength is still undefined. I personally prefer to fight ambiguity with ambiguity and hence my leaning towards Suction or CRASH.

 

However, I don't think bidding at the 1 level is good enough, that should probably be best left as a lead director and I am of the somewhat vehement opinion that one should never double a strong ♣ or ♦ or its negative response, it just gives the strong opener's side more room (and two more calls). It is hard to understand why so many people play Mathe (X:majors, 1NT: minors, everything else natural), maybe except for the simplicity.

 

I have played Suction and modified CRASH before, I prefer the "all levels" version of Suction as it takes away the most space in the quickest possible way. I also play Suction against strong 2♣ and strong 2♦ and their waiting/nebulous responses.

 

To the best of my knowledge, Suction is not allowed in ACBL land against 1NT openings (must be the off week) although modified Hamilton (where X shows a minor one suiter or a major/minor two suiter) is, I don't quite get this but whatever.

 

A side benefit of playing a strong club/diamond is to hear the opps repeat the good old ("See pard, I stole their opening bid") line after they open a 1♣/♦. It never gets old, even after the 1000th time ;)

 

Görkem

[Al_U_Card]

dbl=majors

1D=H or S and a shorter minor

1H= H and a longer minor

1S= S and a longer minor

1NT = minors

 

(Really helpful when you're overdrawn at the memory bank.... ;) )

[mike777]

I play a type of suction against strong clubs (and polish club -- when it is alerted)... I got this from Chris Ryall's page, I think was called raptor over big club or Myxoma over big club...

 

DBL is oddly enough clubs, and is rarely used.. mabye both major is better

1♦ is transfer to ♥

1♥ is transfer to ♠

1♠ is raptor with 4♠ (sometimes plus, occassionlly 3 cards), and a longer minor

1NT is raptor but with 4♥ (sometimes 3+, and sometimes more 5♥ and longer minor

2♣ is ♦ or ♠ and ♥

2♦ is ♥ or ♠ and ♣

2♥ is ♠ or ♦ and ♣

2♠ 5-5 in ♠ and ♦ (i often use raptor 1♠ instead if 5-5 weak

I was wondering with all the Polish Club users online, if Suction or what Ben plays is winning bridge?

 

Does anyone know the more common defenses against Polish Club that the top class players are using? Would love to see some BW articles on this subject or at least BBO articles ;).

[inquiry]

I play a type of suction against strong clubs (and polish club -- when it is alerted)... I got this from Chris Ryall's page, I think was called raptor over big club or Myxoma over big club...

 

DBL is oddly enough clubs, and is rarely used.. mabye both major is better

1♦ is transfer to ♥

1♥ is transfer to ♠

1♠ is raptor with 4♠ (sometimes plus, occassionlly 3 cards), and a longer minor

1NT is raptor but with 4♥ (sometimes 3+, and sometimes more 5♥ and longer minor

2♣ is ♦ or ♠ and ♥

2♦ is ♥ or ♠ and ♣

2♥ is ♠ or ♦ and ♣

2♠ 5-5 in ♠ and ♦ (i often use raptor 1♠ instead if 5-5 weak

I was wondering with all the Polish Club users online, if Suction or what Ben plays is winning bridge?

 

Does anyone know the more common defenses against Polish Club that the top class players are using? Would love to see some BW articles on this subject or at least BBO articles ;).

Well, winning bridge is to preempt and raise preempt against undefined 1♣ (especially if it is a strong 1♣ early and often. If your hand is suited for it, a jump to three is great. If it is not, a two suited overcall of some type (you pick your flavor) is also great. The idea is if you have a fit, you partner will raise the devil out of the out of the hand.

 

You want to try to confuse their auction, take away the chance of symetical relays, set up defense for lead or a sacrafice. And if possible put them into question about what is their combined stregnth and shape. I don't advocate bidding on nothing, but you want to get in I think if feasible.

 

The concept of suction, raptor and these Myxoma twos over their 1♣ is to allow your partner to quickly bid to the limit of fit... imagine your partner overcalled a precison 1♣ (16+) with 1♠ and the next hand doubles showing values, and you hold

 

♠ 3

♥ QJ92

♦ Qxxx

♣ Jxxx

 

You would probably want to bid 3♣ pass correct, or maybe more. You have at least a nine card fit and they have not exchanged any information aobut suit legnths.

 

Your actual fit might be in diamonds, and if not vul, your partner might even pass 3♣ if not doubled right away. And if opener bids 3♥ is he showing four? Five? six? Might he have a club-heart two suiter? Might clubs be his best suit? Maybe his best suit is spades and your partner overcalled on three to the KJx of spades with six clubs. At all the other tables the bidding started 1♠ and were not given the problem to solve. Sure they may land on their feet but you get a chance to make it more difficult for them.

[Gerben42]

I like nonforcing Suction (yes I know that normal Suction can be passed also).

 

NT is pointy or round

♣ = ♣ or Red

♦ = ♦ or Majors

etc.

 

After discussion with many Strong Club pairs I came to the conclusion that they also find defending such bids harder if it might include the suit bid.

 

This is also in place after any other strong bid that doesn't show a suit (strong 2♣, Benji 2♦, 2NT strong, whatever)

[Guest Jlall]

I like nonforcing Suction (yes I know that normal Suction can be passed also).

 

NT is pointy or round

♣ = ♣ or Red

♦ = ♦ or Majors

etc.

 

After discussion with many Strong Club pairs I came to the conclusion that they also find defending such bids harder if it might include the suit bid.

 

This is also in place after any other strong bid that doesn't show a suit (strong 2♣, Benji 2♦, 2NT strong, whatever)

also known as psycho suction.

[Free]

I also prefer psycho suction against strong 2m openings without a known suit. Against 1♣ however, I like to intervene a lot on 2-level. That's why we play a structure which can bid with EVERY hand (even 4333's). It depends on your opponents if this works well, but I don't have much bad experiences if we use this tool like it should. We always find playable contracts.

[han]

A more general observation: In my opinion people bid too many 2-suiters against strong 1C openers. The 1-suited in-and-out bids are much harder to deal with. When you have a 2-suiter with one suit clearly better than the other, just bid the one suit as high as you feel comfortable with. The goal shouldn't be to find the best fit, but to bid as high and quickly as possible while avoiding a large penalty. As this is likely their hand, showing a 2-suiter can help them both in bidding and play.

 

For instance, with x xx AQJxx Jxxxx I would rather overcall 2D than show the minors with 2NT. Suction (or psycho suction) may not have this probablem as they won't be able to use unusual vs unusual. However, it will be harder for partner to raise.

[mila85]

I play:

dbl&1♦ - raptor

1M - lenght or shotness (3cards in others) in bid suit

1nt/2♣ same with ♣/♦

2♦ 6cM

2M 5-5

[pclayton]

Well I've played a strong club off and on for the past 25 years and I've never appreciated the interference. Isn't the whole idea of a forcing club to start our constructive auctions as low as possible? Anytime they take up room, it defeats this purpose.

 

Suction works OK. As far as the forcing / non-forcing aspect, you can't effectively wait with a good hand as the partner to the 1♣ opener over the noise, since the suction call can get passed and you've gained very little.

 

I actually like CRASH a little better over a strong club than suction, but suction is fine and works well. I have a few little tricks that I use in responding to a CRASH / SUCTION call, and if you ask nice, I'll share them with you. B)

[the hog]

I have played a big C system for years. Suction, or Twerb as it is called here in Oz, would have to be one of the worst methods for competing against a big C. We thoroughly enjoy playing against such practitioners as the often go for a number or else give away bad breaks. The same applies to those who bid on any sort of trash.

 

By far the most effective method of competition, and I should not be saying this I guess, is to bid for the lead as Hrothgar suggests. A 1D overcall just gives the big clubbers more options. Play 1NT and 2D and 2NT as some sort of 2 suiter, 2M and 3 level bids as a wjo, and bid 4S as often as you dare - now that is hard to combat.

[Free]

With good methods, suction indeed doesn't do that much like people want to suggest. But natural methods sometimes take away so much bidding space, that they get us in slams which we wouldn't bid otherwise because of the lack of space to properly investigate. I remember there was such hand a while ago in a high-level tournament. LHO intervened with 3♦, now that's usually not easy! We had a Dbl and some bids, ending up in slam. Nobody bid this! Tnx to a decent lead I was able to bring it home B) . I told my p "that shall learn them to intervene OUR 1♣". This was the first board in a 2 board/table MP session. Second hand we also opened 1♣, they kept their mouth shut :D :D

[Gerben42]

I have played a big C system for years. Suction, or Twerb as it is called here in Oz, would have to be one of the worst methods for competing against a big C. We thoroughly enjoy playing against such practitioners as the often go for a number or else give away bad breaks. The same applies to those who bid on any sort of trash.

 

Why is Suction different from other bids in this sense? Many people will bid shapely hands regardless if you opened a strong ♣ or a natural 1-bid.

[the hog]

A number of reasons Gerben. I think the guesswork principle of "either or" bids largely works in the favour of the big clubbers, at least that has been my experience. Bidding a 2 suiter when you have little desire to sacrifice is losing tactics as I don't need to tell you - this is not peculiar to Suction of course. Showing specific 2 suiters when you have a good chance to sacrifice allows your partner to guage the value of the double fit.

 

There is another suction issue I should maybe noit mention, but here goes. In my experience many players subject themselves to sever UI and other ethical problems when using stuff like this. I am not haveing a go at anyone here by the way - I am talking about a LARGE number of ftf players who use this crap against us to try and disrupt our C auctions. What sort of ethical problems? Bidding "2 suiters" on 4333 so often that it is an agreement for example. Hesitations are another classic case, where the pd of the suction bidder tries to work out what is likely to be going on.

 

As an aside, we now play that a X of any overcall of a big C is a balanced/semi balanced gf. This works well, and allows us to pick up quite a few penalties. We picked up a decent one last Wed when the opps ended in a 4-4 S fit at the 2 level and my pd was able to make a penalty X with KJx of trumps. This went for 8s against our 420.

[skorchev]

With two of my partners I play suction. It's working perfecly! The difference is that 1♠ shows ♠+♦ or ♥+♣ and 1NT is ♣ or ♦+♥, and we use it up to level 7. Against not a good players this work very very well. Against regular pairs it works good, do not win always, but much better than natural interferences. For example once against regular partners (Advanced skill level) after suction interference they played 4♥ with 4-2 "fit", and I had 6 cards in ♥! ;)

 

Skorchev

[Gerben42]

My strategy when playing Psycho Suction is very simple.

If I have the 1-suiter, bid as I would have when bidding naturally.

If I have the 2-suiter, bid at the level I would if I was playing specific 2-suiters.

 

If I am responder, I figure out "where do I want to play opposite the 1-suiter" and "where do I want to play opposite the 2-suiter" and bid the lowest of those.

 

What sort of ethical problems? Bidding "2 suiters" on 4333 so often that it is an agreement for example. Hesitations are another classic case, where the pd of the suction bidder tries to work out what is likely to be going on.

 

On "fake" 2-suiters. I don't believe in this kind of fooling around. It just hurts partnership confidence inwhat, accept it or not, is a logically complicated situation. Second, overcaller has bid his hand just like any other preempt. His partner can think what he likes, I"m not going to take a second bid unless specifically asked.

 

I really hate it when people misuse similar and also Brown Sticker conventions to give them a bad name. Remember that one of the biggest problems top players have with BSC is the ethical problems and full disclosure problems that they bring up.

These are however problem with the PEOPLE, not problems with the conventions. When you play complicated conventions you have a big responsibility to fully disclose any agreement and experience to your opponents.

 

Against 1♣ however, I like to intervene a lot on 2-level. That's why we play a structure which can bid with EVERY hand (even 4333's).

 

I've seen your DOSC (disturb opponents strong club) 4333 hands don't belong on the 2-level. They need to be overcalled on the 0-level.

 

Playing psycho suction by definition you can bid every 1- and 2-suiter on your beloved 2-level. Other hands don't belong there in the first place.