Bidding Problem

[G_R__E_G]

Ops silent throughout. Partner opens 1♦ in second seat. I responded 1♥ with ♠xx ♥KJxx ♦xxx ♣KJxx. Partner jumps to 3♦ which is at least a good 16 count and at least 6 diamonds by our agreements. I figure I'm a little too good to pass. I don't have room to show I have clubs stopped below 3nt, so I bid 4♦. Partner raises to 5♦ which ends up down 1 (♥Q was offside). Partner had ♠Axx ♥Axx ♦AKQJT9 ♣x. Should I have just bid 3nt assuming partner must have something in spades? Any other suggestions?

[Guest Jlall]

I probably would have just shot out a 3N bid since neither of the opponents bid 1S despite having the chance. Welcome to the forums.

[han]

I would also shoot for 3NT. This may go down, but it is the only way to get there if it makes. Notice that even if you give partner the club ace instead of the spade ace: xxx Axx AKQJxx A you are still a favorite to make this. The fact that neither opponents could overcall makes it much more likely that the suit splits 4-4.

 

There really is no reason to assume that you can make 5D or even 4D.

[mikeh]

I agree with the advice that you shoot out 3N.

 

Pass is possible (your partner held a huge hand... very difficult to bid in standard, but more than I would expect for 3♦), but I agree with bidding.

 

One important factor to consider for this sequence is the meaning to be given to 3♠ by you. It should be a try for game, but not promising length: i.e. you are not trying to get to a ♠ game B)

 

It is also important to use it as an effort to get to 3N. You may, in fact, have a big hand with interest beyond 3N, but then you will pull 3N and thus reveal your true agenda. Partner initially assumes a notrump probe.

 

So far so good: but does 3N show a ♠stopper (thus implying ♣ concern) or deny a stopper (promising ♣ control) or say nothing much (eg xxx AKxx Qxx xxxx) or promise both blacks stopped?

 

This latter meaning is too narrow and too infrequent to be best. The 'nothing much' also caters to too narrow a target.

 

I suspect that most would play it as the first meaning (I have something in ♠, can you bid 3N?), but you should talk about this and similar sequences with any regular partner.

 

Absent specific agreement (and depending on what that agreement is) I bid a confident 3N (always be confident even when you are not :D )

[Al_U_Card]

Often when pard jumps in his minor, he is also indicating a problem with the hand (no support, missing stoppers etc.) Your judgement call is to make the value bid with your hand. Since you have 2 suits stopped and pard HAS shown 15+ hcp and a source of tricks, the value bid would be 3NT. 4D is a much more distributional hand than you have, with but one suit stopped.....

[Guest Jlall]

why does 3D indicate a problem? Isn't he just showing a decent hand (16/17ish) and 6 decent diamonds?

[Al_U_Card]

Only in the sense (it was in the title as well) of what final contract to play in, not in what his bid shows.... ;) The hand in question might have bid 3H iso 3D but never 2NT unless the H and C were interchanged.

[pclayton]

Oh I suppose I might pass with this cheese. Pard had an absolute max 3♦ call and some side QT's which make game. With a lesser hand, game is iffy.

[Stephen Tu]

I feel opener is too strong to bid 3D with 8 tricks in hand. In my mind 3D would be the right bid if the SA were the SJ. I think in standard you have to jump shift to 2S, which should reach 3nt comfortably.

 

3D is kind of a horrible rebid for standard methods, you only have one PLOB bid of 3S, and does this show a spade stop & worry about club stop, or the other way around, how do you find 3 cd heart support, etc. It's lucky that the sequence is relatively rare.

 

My favorite way to handle these hands in a semi-natural way is having opener's 2c & 2s rebids be forcing (the latter DENYING 4S, strong hands with 4 spades bid a forcing, ambiguous strength 1S and catch up later), with opener jumping to 3c with min 5-5 minor hands (NF). That way opener can systemically show his side suit strength/fragment (and not have responder assume it is a real 4+ suit) before rebidding 3D, so responder doesn't have to guess about what stoppers are needed. Also it leaves room for responder to show 5+ hearts (artificially rebid 2nt over 2s), so you don't have guesses about 5-3 heart fits either. You can also add in various 4+ inv heart raises, being able to show a splinter in the unbid suit without driving past 3H, unlike in standard methods. This scheme is an extension of K-S developed by Bo-Yin Yang. Works well when it comes up, doesn't give up much, just doesn't come up too frequently. Also obviously you need a regular partnership to try this.

[the hog]

Only in the sense (it was in the title as well) of what final contract to play in, not in what his bid shows.... B) The hand in question might have bid 3H iso 3D but never 2NT unless the H and C were interchanged.

Why might the hand in question bid 3H on a 3 card suit? What is this preoccupation with bidding suits that don't exist?

[Fluffy]

I have an agreement that on these situations 3♠ shows stopper in only 1 of the balck suits.

 

But anyway this is not your fault, your partner had an obvious 3NT rebid after 1♥.

[SoTired]

I would rebid 2N with opener's hand

3N is your most likely making game, so bid it. Because:

1) opener may have a spade stopper

2) maybe they won't lead a spade

3) maybe they can't run enough tricks to set you

4) maybe the spade suit will block

5) even if you had a spade stopper you could go down for other reasons. All game contracts are a gamble, the spades are just part of that gamble.

[Al_U_Card]

Only in the sense (it was in the title as well) of what final contract to play in, not in what his bid shows.... <_<  The hand in question might have bid 3H iso 3D but never 2NT unless the H and C were interchanged.

Why might the hand in question bid 3H on a 3 card suit? What is this preoccupation with bidding suits that don't exist?

Well, how about a 3 card raise? 4 Hearts on the moysian might just be the best game and you take the tap in clubs in the short hand.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

just bid 3NT, it will be on most of the time, because

you have the values.

 

There exist methods to solve this problem,

you can find them here on the forum, becuase

the problem occurs regular at this forum,

but those solutions have their own problems.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe