Cue bid or natural

[Flame]

I was tought that when we have major fit and we are GF, new suits are cue bids.

I heard from ppl like Jlall (and the relayers) that many times its more important to show ur hand naturally, and i agree, the problem is how can i define a simple rule or rules that will say when bid is nat and when its cue ? or must i go over each sequence possible with partner , which I think wont end well.

[Guest Jlall]

heres a good rule. The FIRST slam try is semi-natural (as in 3+ card suit, usually 4+)

[Flame]

heres a good rule. The FIRST slam try is semi-natural (as in 3+ card suit, usually 4+)

This sounds good but this means you will sometime bypass a normal cue because u dont have the suit lengh needed, this will effect the all cue bidding process which normally the all idea is to find suits with lack of control by passing them.

example 1S-2H-3H-4D

I have good hand with no club control, normally i would bid 4h, but now im not sure, maybe partner has club cntrl but not club nat.

[MickyB]

Of course, but that's true of any situation where you've agreed the suit at the 3 level. If you think being able to cue is more important than continuing to bid your hand naturally then just play cuebids in this situation. No idea which is the better method, interesting idea though.

[Guest Jlall]

heres a good rule. The FIRST slam try is semi-natural (as in 3+ card suit, usually 4+)

This sounds good but this means you will sometime bypass a normal cue because u dont have the suit lengh needed, this will effect the all cue bidding process which normally the all idea is to find suits with lack of control by passing them.

example 1S-2H-3H-4D

I have good hand with no club control, normally i would bid 4h, but now im not sure, maybe partner has club cntrl but not club nat.

This is actually a GREAT example auction. Suppose you have:

 

xx

AKxxx

x

AJxxx

 

Isn't the key to slam going to be partner's club holding? If you can bid 4C NATURAL partner will understand club honors are GOOD. If you would bid 4C with this hand as well as with

 

Ax

AKxxxx

Qxxx

x

 

It will be difficult for partner to know how to evaluate his hand. Is KQx of clubs a good holding? I am convinced natural bidding over 3H is in this auction is a very good way to play, it's not controls that make slam it's tricks. If partner has a good holding in your side suit, he can cuebid past game. If you have a hand that only needs a certain control, you can cuebid past game. It's unlikely you will both have exactly xxx in an unbid suit, so the 5 level will likely be safe.

[han]

Here is an agreement that I like, perhaps you'll do too:

 

1) If a major suit fit is found at the 2-level, our bids are natural through 3M. Higher bids are cuebids.

 

2) If a major fit is found at the 3-level, the first next bid is somewhat natural and shows a suit where help is appreciated.

 

There are many logical alternatives to these rules. For instance, if we have already described our shape.

 

There are also examples where a cuebid sets trump, for instance 1S-2D-2H-2NT-3S-4C, all by us playing 2/1. 4C sets hearts as trump and shows a slam suitable hand. It does not show a club suit.

[Guest Jlall]

Here is an agreement that I like, perhaps you'll do too:

 

1) If a major suit fit is found at the 2-level, our bids are natural through 3M. Higher bids are cuebids.

 

2) If a major fit is found at the 3-level, the first next bid is somewhat natural and shows a suit where help is appreciated.

I like these rules a lot. It is basically what I play, yet I have never seen them formally articulated. Thanks.

[Elianna]

There are also examples where a cuebid sets trump, for instance 1S-2D-2H-2NT-3S-4C, all by us playing 2/1. 4C sets hearts as trump and shows a slam suitable hand. It does not show a club suit.

Let me get this right. The auction has proceeded:

1S - 2D

2H - 2NT

3S - 4C

 

4C sets hearts and 4D would set spades?

[Guest Jlall]

probably meant 4C sets spades. 4D also sets spades... Can't set hearts once you bid 2N lol.

[Elianna]

probably meant 4C sets spades. 4D also sets spades... Can't set hearts once you bid 2N lol.

I was wondering about that. :) But I like to think of alternative meanings. :)

[Flame]

thx all good advices. im convinced

[ArcLight]

Justin,

How would you bid this hand you provided , given the bidding you mentioned 1S - 2H - 3H - ?

 

Ax

AKxxxx

Qxxx

x

 

 

If I follow your posts correctly, you wouldnt bid 3 Spades or 4 Clubs (Cue bids). Would you bid 4 Diamonds? If so, then might not pard assume you have more in diamonds than the Q?

[Guest Jlall]

Correct, I would bid 4D. Honestly, partner would generally assume a control so yes we may get to slam if he has something like KQJxx QJx xx AKQ. On the upside, they haven't beat it yet.

[han]

There are also examples where a cuebid sets trump, for instance 1S-2D-2H-2NT-3S-4C, all by us playing 2/1. 4C sets hearts as trump and shows a slam suitable hand. It does not show a club suit.

Let me get this right. The auction has proceeded:

1S - 2D

2H - 2NT

3S - 4C

 

4C sets hearts and 4D would set spades?

Err, yes typo, meant sets spades :). If I wanted to set hearts I had to do it last round.

[Winstonm]

heres a good rule. The FIRST slam try is semi-natural (as in 3+ card suit, usually 4+)

This sounds good but this means you will sometime bypass a normal cue because u dont have the suit lengh needed, this will effect the all cue bidding process which normally the all idea is to find suits with lack of control by passing them.

example 1S-2H-3H-4D

I have good hand with no club control, normally i would bid 4h, but now im not sure, maybe partner has club cntrl but not club nat.

This is actually a GREAT example auction. Suppose you have:

 

xx

AKxxx

x

AJxxx

 

Isn't the key to slam going to be partner's club holding? If you can bid 4C NATURAL partner will understand club honors are GOOD. If you would bid 4C with this hand as well as with

 

Ax

AKxxxx

Qxxx

x

 

It will be difficult for partner to know how to evaluate his hand. Is KQx of clubs a good holding? I am convinced natural bidding over 3H is in this auction is a very good way to play, it's not controls that make slam it's tricks. If partner has a good holding in your side suit, he can cuebid past game. If you have a hand that only needs a certain control, you can cuebid past game. It's unlikely you will both have exactly xxx in an unbid suit, so the 5 level will likely be safe.

The point is well taken and similar to the situations I talked about in another post on "sniffer bids".

 

But the second hand here is better bid by using "serious" 3N - this 16 count has more than a "casual" interest in slam.

 

Another problem in these auction is whose suit is being supported? When opener bids a minor and then supports a major there is no guarantee of any particular length in the opened suit: AJxx, AKxx, xx, Jxx.

 

1C-1S

2S-3C

 

This doesn't do much good unless 3C is somehow less than a "serious" try.

 

How do you separate:

KQxxxx, xx, x, KQxx (Axxx, Ax, xx, AJ10xx)

from

KQxxx, Qxx, AKJx, x (Axxx, AKxx, xx, Qxx)

 

I contend that with the plethora of available game tries and the lack of definition that the best use for 3S in this auction by responder is "serious" and a slam try - it immediately untangles the bidding and now opener can describe his hand in terms of slam potential instead of game potential and they are quite different beasts.

 

Using the "serious self raise" in this sequence, opener can now describe a goodish club suit with a 4C bid, a balanced hand with controls and interest with 3N, and an unbalanced hand and interest with any other cue bid.

 

With this agreement in place, the first hand can bid 3C as a mild try with club support (actually 4C is the correct bid to show doubleton club honor) and the second hand can bid 3 forcing spades and hear a 3N response - now a cue bid of 4C does not need to be supportive as opener has denied a long suit.

 

When you live out on a desert island like I do, these things actually begin to make sense: :)

 

Winston

[keylime]

Depends as well if you're using fast vs. slow arrival. Then free bids after major fit take on whole new meanings.

[Al_U_Card]

In playing fast arrival, I always (right or wrong) considered that after the fit, bids were natural and showed extra strength but that 3NT was asking pard to start the q bidding sequence as I had no 1st round controls to show. This allows his return to game as showing that he is not having any lower ranking 1st round controls either.

[helene_t]

There is something called "advanced cuebids" (advanced in the meaning of "early", not in the meaning of "sofisticated"). The idea is that after a major suit has been agreed at the 2-level, or a minor suit at the 3-level, a new suit is primarily whatever kind of trial you play, but if the new-suit bidder subsequently makes a slam try, the meaning changes to cue bid. Example:

1♦-2♣

3♣-3♥*

3NT**-4♦***

*Until further notice, a game try showing a heart stopper

**Spades stopped

***Cue bid, and btw 3♥ was not a stopper but a cue bid

[Chamaco]

Let me get this right. The auction has proceeded:

1S - 2D

2H - 2NT

3S - 4C

 

4C sets hearts and 4D would set spades?

I think that after

1S - 2D (GF)

2H - 2NT

 

3C should be checkback, to cater for finding the H fit.