Crunch3nt

Hi Ben, I agree you play interesting methods and do appreciate that you share them on this forum. "Our drawbacks in comp bidding are a) opening 1NT with any bal 5M 12-14 V&NV This is a big penalty and is by far our biggest handicap, nothing come even close IMO." In crunch we duplicate 11-14 5332 major shapes in the relays, holder can choose to show as either a) balanced (ie in our weak 1NT opening) or b) as unbalanced single-suiters 1st step. This makes the 6322s and 6331s come out higher, but 5332s are so common we find the trade-off worth it.

So if partner had SJ and CJ instead of SQ, you would have got bottom in 5D?

In New Zealand in the 80's, medium pass (9-15) was played by 3/4 high quality pairs but it went by wayside quickly due to the preemption issues already mentioned. AWM, Here Strong Pass means 15/16+, not 13+, with 8/9-14 openings and a 0-7/8 1H fert.

To clarify Australia/New Zealand actual regulations, this is what they are: In matchpoint events HUM systems are banned in both countries, while brown sticker is banned altogether in NZ and in all but very top matchpoint events in Australia. This is much more annoying in NZ where 80% of tournament bridge is still matchpoints, while in Australia 90% of tournament bridge is imps. In team events, with matches of 8 or more boards, HUM systems are allowed in both countries, but the entire team loses its seating rights for the whole of the swiss qualifying (including the matches when the HUM pair are not playing in a 6 person team). Also you are not allowed to play the HUM system for the first 3 rounds of the swiss qualifying event, and then if you drop out of the top 3rd of the field in terms of your placing, you are not allowed to play it until you regain top 3rd. Also you need to lodge your full system notes with the directors 2 weeks before the event and provide a bona-fide suggested defence. One incorrect statement on here is that HUM systems are allowed in the Bermuda Bowl - they are not allowed in the qualifying round-robin at all, and only, in theory, can be used in the knockout stages. The reality is different. I play (and co-created) the dreaded T-rex mentioned by Hog, although we call it "Crunch!" now. In 2009 Crunch was submitted to the WBF by New Zealand to play in the Burmuda Bowl in the event we made the knockouts but the chairman of the WBF systems committee John Wignall (interestingly, a New Zealander) banned it from even the final stages! The Bermuda Bowl truly is a "no-fear" event.

"If you do this, you want to play the garbage stayman method where 1N-2♣-2♦-2♥ partner ALWAYS bids 2♠ when holding 3 spades and 2 hearts." We all play correcting with 3-2 down here in New Zealand. Garbage stayman is so popular here primarily because we all used to play weak NT. I read years ago the odds were as high as 60% that partner had a 4 card major but a good player whose maths I would trust didn't believe me when I told him that and he did his own analysis recently and he got 58%

So instead of bidding 4H, when East bids 3S followed by 4H, this does not show a slam-try (cuebid is game forcing) and instead just shows a HCP raise? ie a similar concept to when the auction goes (1S) X (Pass), 4H shows a distributional hand, and hyou have to go via 2S with bal HCP and hearts?

Hi all, The actual hand below: With over 50% going for the wrong lead, Maybe this is an allocate the blame problem? Perhaps East should have bid 3S or 3C instead of 4H? [hv=pc=n&s=sakq953hkj9d872c3&w=sthaqt54dkjt6c752&n=s8764h82d93ca9864&e=sj2h763daq54ckqjt&d=s&v=n&b=15&a=1s2h2s4h4sppdppp]399|300[/hv]

[hv=pc=n&w=sthaqt54dkjt6c752&d=s&v=n&b=15&a=1s2h2s4h4sppdppp]133|200[/hv] Please comment freely! I have no idea of best/percentage lead. Will post actual hand in 24 hours

[hv=pc=n&s=sk742hkdaqj43cqt5&n=sa8ha984dkt2caj96&d=s&v=n&b=15&a=1d1sdp1np3nppp]266|200[/hv] System is 15-17 1NT with 5 card majors, 4 card Diamond, Short Club South downgraded slightly rebidding 1NT with poor spade cards, soft values, and no clear alternative North couldn't see a good slam opposite a weak 1NT rebid. Who should have done what?

I can't bid grand other than punting it. I would have bid 5H over 5C rather than 6C, but that doesn't achieve that much. I am sure at the vulnerability given though, for better or worse, my partnership would be defending 3HX.

We have been playing 1H as 7-10 any shape for almost 10 years - responses (and escapes) well sorted. It is a big winner. We actually play 1S as relay over it (up 2 steps), but natural would probably work just as well. Yes the opener passer does need to balance with the strong hand all of the time. There is a big gain though. When opener in a strong club system passes, and LHO bids 2S, responder doesn't know whether their partner has 0-6 or 7-10 HCP. In our system responder assumes partner is 0-6 and thus does no act on those borderline hands. A big advantage. Mattias - Good advice thank you. Those principles 1C is 0-6 or 16+, and other bids can be wide-ranging both make good sense. Olien - Agree with the transfer openings in 3rd/4th with opener relaying with the strong hand - right up my alley. Agree P-1C; 1D being the strong hand and 1H response being weak. I would get rid of that 11-13 NT out of 1C though. Thank you.

According to Roy Hughes analysis, having the known hand as dummy rather than declarer is worth on average 1/3rd of a trick per hand. That is a serious negative to overcome, and why 1) is the most important. At this stage, I am still playing a 1D response to 1C as 8+ Balanced GF, not any GF. 1H is the negative (0-4 unbalanced with a major, 0-7 balanced or unbalanced no major) and the rest are unbalanced semi-positive or stronger with a major or GF unbalanced no major as we discussed when you were in NZ. I still think it is more important to show shape immediately and sort your range out later. After the auction 1C-1D; 1H, responder goes into exact shape and opener always relays. Relay breaks by opener are undefined at this stage - something to think about! The reverse relay structure is new and unique. It is not symmetric and is a pain to remember. I can email if you wish.

Hi all, I am looking for a clean slate, fresh, innovative ideas on how to respond to our 1st/2nd seat opening pass that shows: 0-6 HCP any shape or 16+ Unbalanced any shape, or 17+ Balanced. I am pretty happy with our 1st/2nd seat structure. Lets focus on the 3rd/4th openings only. (Positive comments are ok :-) We play moscito-ish openings with full relay. Our style is for balanced hands to include all 4432s and 5332s including with a major. Unbalanced hands can be 5422 or 6322 / 7222 but otherwise have a singleton/void. For the record the rest of the opening structure is: Pass = 0-6 or 16+ Unbal or 17+ Bal 1C = (10)11-15, 4+H, unbal, can have longer minor 1D = (10)11-15, 4+S, unbal, can have longer minor 1H = 7-10 Any shape 1S = 11-13 Bal 1NT = 14-16 Bal 2C = (10)11-15 5+/4+ Both Minors 2D = (10)11-15 6+ Diamonds, No Major 2H = (10)11-15 6+ Clubs, No Major 2S = Weak, 5 or 6 Spades 2NT = 5-8 5+/5+ Majors 3x = Pre It is obviously a HUM, and the responses can be as HUM as much you like. (I live in New Zealand, so obviously I can play this at my local club). Complicated / Memory issues shouldn't be a problem - but don't go overboard if you don't need to :-) Thoughts / ideas welcome please :-)

I am very late to this topic, and nothing revolutionary to add but for the record here is our latest thinking: There are three major conflicting principles when designing the shape showing part of your relay system: 1) You want the hand having its shape shown to be dummy 2) You want an unbalanced hand to show rather than ask 3) You want the strong hand to do the asking, rather than a weak hand I consider number 1 to be most important, and 2 to be next important & 3 least important (but still important). After 1C strong, 1D art GF: we play that 1H is relay, and 1S+ is reverse relay. The only only shapes shown by opener in the reverse relay are limited because of space to just those with exactly a singleton (not void) thus all 5431, 6421, 4441, 6331, 5521 shapes only. 76 shapes in total. We currently play these as unlimited. All shapes come out by 3H allowing a range probe at the 3 level. The 1H relay includes all balanced hands, 6322s, 5422s, 7xxx, 74xx, 5530 and 65xx single suiters. The crucial 1NT reverse relay is a little overloaded in stealing the NT declarership in that it shows S&H or S&C - but as we all know, its all about trade-offs...

I do think the 2C opening is brown sticker - Needs to be a King above average strength not to be.

I think you are being very unfair. His entire system is based around the fact that distribution is more important than HCP - that's why he lumps all balanced hands into 1 bid and uses all the other bids to describe shapes with unlimited point ranges no less. And then he is able to describe his balanced ranges into a 1 point range at a low level - clearly better in uncontested auctions than normal systems! Do you really think he is that worse off vs a "standard" player after preemption? His 1C is always balanced, whereas a standard 1C could be 11-19 HCP, clubs or not clubs, balanced or unbalanced. One, two or 3 suited or not. Its at least a draw in terms of preemptive effect, in fact he is probably ahead. Keep the faith bbochev!

I find it pretty surprising this post has no replies as in my experience, "Hughes" is easily the most efficient DCB/Spiral Scan method I've come across. I found it in "Building a Bidding System" book by Canadian Roy Hughes. He didn't give the method a name, so since my regular partner & I now use it, we named it after him. The major example in the book is a hand apparently from the final of the 2004 Olympiad in Istanbul between Italy and the Netherlands - but it fails to say who used this relay method - I guess one of the dutch pairs. Anyway. Here is an example: AQ10942 63 K54 A5 KJ AQ5 AQ983 864 North opens 1H showing spades, South GF relays and North shows 6=2=3=2 with a last bid of 3D. 1) Playing controls with symmetric DCB, the auction would continue: 3H 4D 5 controls 4H 5C A or K in Spades, and Diamonds, but not in Hearts 5D 5NT A or K Clubs, Queen of spades, but no Queen of Diamonds 2) Playing relay points with parity PCB: 3H 4D 9 Queen Points 4H 4S Even number of controls in Spades 4NT 5C Even number of controls in Diamonds 5D 5H Even number of controls in Hearts (Can't tell between KH & KD?) 3) Hughes: 3H 4D Even number of Aces, and the KD or both of KS and KH 4H 5C QS or both KC and QD 5D 5H 0 or all 3 of QH, QC, and JS 5S 5NT No JD (not sure you care - bid the grand anyway) Hopefully I have these auctions right. Just trying to show Hughes efficiency not insult or mis-speak any one's methods. Now for the bad news about Hughes. It is most efficient but we have found that when a weak hand is relaying a strong hand, we often can't decode the responses. Major problem. It does do much better when a strong hand relays a weak one. However we still like Hughes and use it in conjunction with other methods - the key being, the asker (captain) can tell when he/she can decode the responses - so you use Hughes when you can tell, and you use other methods when you cant. Anyway, comments, thoughts?

Hi Rik, I'm not picking on relay methods, I prefer them to natural methods. :-) I agree that playing 15-17 1NT, the West hand is too strong. (I hadn't noticed that). So you are right, the natural auction would be no better off: 1D-1H; 2NT-3C (CB); 3NT My comments are about the principles involved though. Relay has its drawbacks, and this posting is an example of the most significant - not being able to differentiate between suit quality. This issue come up a lot. eg Partner opens, you relay and find out you have no 8 card major fit, but opposite your xxx he has a doubleton. Do you choose 3NT or a Major suit Moyse? You are guessing. I totally disagree that if you did open 1NT, that P-1NT; 2♦-2♥; 3♣ with xx AQxxx xx Kxxx is "daisy-picking". 24 HCP with a 5 card suit is a clear GF, and P-1NT; 2♦-2♥; 3♣ is a perfect description of your hand. When you do play natural, the advantage is that you get to bid quality suits when you can and NT when you can't.

Some thoughts: 1) I don't think you should call it Moscito either. I would just call it Strong Club. 2) I would have thought that systemically passing with 11-14 HCP and 4S and 6C was a HUM - wbf definition is "A Pass in the opening position shows at least the values generally accepted for an opening bid of one, even if there are alternative weak possibilities" 3) Going way back to your very original post, I would have just given up your 2H opening. Weak two in hearts aren't much chop these days.

oops

Hi Shevek, Your hand is an excellent example of the drawback to relay. You do find out the shape, but not the suit quality, whereas with natural bidding, you are able to choose to highlight issues if you wish eg with xx AQxxx xx Kxxx, the auction goes P-1NT; 2D-2H; 3C but with Kx xxxxx Ax Qxxx the auction goes P-1NT; 3NT and with the original hand probably P-1NT; 2D-2H, 3NT. To solve this issue, your suggestion of 2NT, Nat GF is a good one if you have it available (my system doesn't). Over it responder should not bid 3NT with all 2=5=2=4 shapes. If 2NT promises two hearts (it should), then 3H should show doubt about NT and a good suit. 3C should be doubt as well, not 5/5 because opener could have asked, and you would have opened rather than passing anyway. A good alternative method is to play some of the available relay-breaks by captain as asking about the quality of the doubleton(s). I haven't played this method, so don't know the exact scheme, but this seems a pretty good fix.

If you are playing 2D GF Relay (why not 2C GF Relay as a matter of interest?) then summarising all of the comments above gives over a weak or mini NT: 3NT To Play 3S Anti-stayman (ie GF, no slam interest, 4 of bid major (or other major depending on how GFR works), denies 4 of other major) 3H Anti-stayman (ie GF, no slam interest, 4 of bid major (or other major depending on how GFR works), denies 4 of other major) 3D To Play 3C To Play 2NT Invitational, NF 2S To Play 2H To Play 2D GF Relay 2C Art. Puppet to 2D (I would allow opener to bid a 5 card major instead of 2D). Shows either a) invite with a major, or B) GF with a singleton somewhere 1NT 2C 2D 2M Invite 4M 2NT 31(54), or 13(54, or 6 Diamonds slam try, singleton somewhere, then 3C asks: 3D = 3154 or 1354 (3H asks), 3H, 3S, 3NT = Diamonds, & singleton 3C 6 clubs singleton, 3D asks 3D-3NT = GF 4441

Hi Straube, Quote: "Our 1S-2C is a GF relay and we can pretty much relay for every single shape. A basic question to ask is when ought we show hearts (GI+ or GF) as opposed to relaying? I would think that 1S-2D ought to be a hand that has minimal interest in slam." That is a very good question. Why do you overlap the GF Heart hand? Most people put it into their GI or GF relay and play 2D (or 2H) as NF values. That is the reason why von-arnim - Zenkel's structure is not best for you. (interestingly their structure is exactly the same as mine btw. We play 4 card major canape too with 2D showing hearts but less than GI opposite a minimum opening, but our major openings are 11-20, not limited) Philosophically over transfer responses, you pretty much have a straight choice between a) the acceptance of the transfer promising a fit (2+) and all the other bids say they hate the transfer or B) the acceptance of the transfer says I hate the transfer, and all other bids say they like the transfer suit, differentiating 2, 3 or 4 card support, strength, side suits etc. For most transfer methods B) doesn't work as there isn't sufficient values to sort it all out, but in your method there probably is. Playing a) 2H should definitely be forcing.

Hi all, When playing a relay system, there are some problem hands that normal denial cue bidding (DCB) or Spiral Scans methods don't hand well. eg when the person asking has a void, or has two very strong suits but blank in the other 2 suits eg AKQxx x xxx AQxx. What methods do relayers use to combat these? Some kind of exclusion for the void hands perhaps? I have seen non-relay precision players use Asking bids quite effectively, yet the method seems to be generally looked down upon? Thoughts please.

I've been playing relay over a weak NT for years, and I agree it has many drawbacks/limitations as others have said, but you know what - it is still better than not playing it. Easy finding of fits, honour cards and 1NT opener's doubleton makes for good bidding.