ahollan1

my focus is absolutely on VUGRAPH is there documentation that discusses impact on vugraph in a way that allows ability to assess from the perspective of: a) organizer b) operator c) commentator d) spectator * features in windows that will not be available in browser top on my list of concerns is loss of local lin file that can be edited to correct the historical record * features in browser that are not available in windows - that are not currently available in browser i.e. no need to mention voice commentary * features that are only being considered for later releases * features that are rejected from consideration

2 suggestions for helping to identify tables with active Voice Commentary 1) on the web page that lists vugraph tables, display an icon to identify rooms that have voice commentary 2) when voice commentary is activated - broadcast an announcement explaining that Voice Commentary has begun at ... specific table 2a) perphaps even give a link to join that table Al Hollander bbo=ahollan1

During some vugraph sessions, there is an extra button available at the bottom of the table [unless using original Windows BBO] I believe it was first used to point to USBFScore. The pop-up page from clicking on the table/event name gives access to the tournament home page, but in some instances that has proved to be inadequate when trying to access scores Since the most common request from spectators is a link to running scores, I suggest expanded use of that button to point specifically to running and/or live scores For example, the Cavendish Pairs that is now in its last session has: 1) a tab for Results that is available from the tournament home page 2) a URL to Barometer Scores that is NOT available from the tournament home page Having access to the specific information might require adjustment to the page that is used by host when setting up the Vugraph Schedule example: What is the link to the tournament home page What, if any, link is used to access running scores i.e. scores updated only at end of session What, if any, link is used to access live scores i.e. scores updated at end of each hand In the context of setting up Vugraph Schedule, but different from thesis of current request Will livebridge.net be used? (rosters, CC access, video, etc) Al Hollander bbo=ahollan1

PRE-ALERT: if administrator believes this post should be in the Vugraph Forum - please feel free to move it there Throughout a given session and across up to 2 weeks for long tournaments, commentators are bombarded with requests for the same information over and over again. Unless using original Windows BBO, there are certain popups/hyperlinks available to the user while at a vugraph table that address most if not all of these requests. 1) click on player name gives pop-up for player information, convention cards, wbf &/o acbl records 2) click on table/event name gives pop-up for event vugraph schedule [in viewer's time zone] and link to event home page 3) sometimes extra button for: link to livescores, live video On entering the vugraph table, sometimes there is a BBO broadcast about availability of video - with specific link My request here is to expand the use of the broadcast to explain availability of all of the other links Al Hollander bbo=ahollan1

[refer also to comments about us not knowing goal/requirements/design/plan ...] This explanation is missing a very critical piece of information ... Are you going to change the interface?

Quote I'm a little wary of adding active checks like you suggest, since there might be concurrent events within the same tournament, and I don't want to force entering them all in time order. E.g. at the NABC, you might want enter all the sessions of the Spingold, then go back and enter all the sessions of the Wagar. [apologies - i couldn't figure out how to include both quotes with author/timestamp] Exactly right. There is a significant difference between checking for potential conflicts and preventing them. With no sanity checking BBO runs the risk of things that have actually occurred and been reported as problems. examples: Host submitting information with impossible overlapping sessions of the same event vugraph archive adding "commentator chat" in one room that not only doesn't match what is happening in that room but frequently isn't from same set of boards, match or even event. The BBO response that you quoted concerns me. Roland pointed out the bad entrie with overlapping start times that were visible on the posted schedule, but I didn't notice a response from BBO. But that is consistent with non-communication of requirements/design/goals/plans [and apparent failure to get input from key players before design/implementation] If the only goal is to speed things up and eliminate tedious manual tasks ... go for it But that may just be a way to get faster BAD data. Roland's suggestion of routine manual inspection of data was probably rejected because it just replaces one form of tedium with another. Sanity checking IS something that can be done manually. HOWEVER keep in mind 2 quotes I used often back in the days of software engineering 1) if you don't have a good process, automation won't help 2) if you don't know where you're going, it doesn't matter how you get there conclusion: if you want useful/accurate output from automation - you have to understand ALL that was being done manually if you want end-users to embrace the tooling, you should ACTIVELY interact with them to determine Use Cases [more s/w engineer-speak] and interface needs/desires. and you need a communicated plan for addressing issues that aren't addressed with the tooling P.S. I intentionally defined the very narrow scope of commentator data entry to avoid larger issues such as multiple concurrent matches from single venue or new event/venue starting during an already selected session. But even in those cases, it would be beneficial for commentators/hosts to be aware of potential conflicts. [temporary] end of this soapbox Al

I've just used the online signup mechanism for the first time. Here are a few observations 1) There should be separate threads for comments about a) interface for commentators b) interface for tournament hosts c) general discussion of the topic d) changes that affect vugraph within BBO software [only if that activity will ever be in play] 2) Fred's recent post [not sure if it was this thread or the other "automation" thread hinted at some BBO goals, but as a former software engineer geek, the lack of communicated requirement/design/implementation plans restricts most comments to bandaids for the vugraph schedule interface. {in spite of gut level instinct to expand on that, i'll leave it for another day IF there is interest} The rest of this tome is based on the simple[simplistic] assumption that a goal is to make it easier for BBO to ungag/gag commentators. Hopefully there is or will be more to it than that, but that is beyond the current scope 3) Specific to the sign-up interface for commentators a) after scrolling down to entries for Buffett Cup, I clicked on a session and ... was immediately returned to the top of the page b) scrolled down again to Buffett Cup entries, noticed chosen session was highlighted then selected 2nd set ... Hopefully you see where this is going. Each session selection required re-scroll to locate, selection, then re-scroll to confirm As an User Interface that is almost double-dummy awful Requirement: R1: Provide quick/easy way to get to/select specific tournament R2: Within tournament, provide mechanism for selection of multiple sessions before entry submission R3: Provide at least one feedback mechanism to confirm the data entry R3a: this can be immediate that shows just selections made R3ai: show both selections made and remaining sessions for that tourney that were NOT chosen R3b: delayed feedback [presumably e-mail] that lists: R3bi: name of tourney just affected R3bii: list of sessions just affected [include date, time and session name] R3biii: URL to tournament page if one exists R3biv: URL to official CCs submitted for the tourney, if one exists [oops seems i've let slip hints at requirements for interface with host] R3bv: identification of room(s) that want to restrict commentary to language other than english [now i've also let slip possible requirement for display of schedule and possibly with change to BBO s/w -- oh my] R3c: regardless of immediate/delayed feedback, for each entry show the selection of written vs voice R4: Tool must do sanity check to prevent a commentator from double booking time slot(s) [automation should do sanity checking in other areas too, but I digress] Without attempting to mimic a host, I can imagine a list of requirements for that interface. But I'll leave that for another entry and only if there is interest. Last note: If BBO is really going to automatically gag after completion of a set [hinted at in earlier entry for one of the threads], well ... that is easy to code and I predict doomed to fail on multiple levels. But that goes back to inability to comment without having seen real requirements/goals/plans, etc. Al

The only info I have was gleaned from the official convention cards that are archived on ecatsbridge [see links in orginal post for this thread] . I'm monitoring this thread also hoping to hear about specifics.

I agree Dave - thanks for opening this thread. There are fundamental flaws in making the BBO operator the official scorekeeper. The list includes, but isn't limited to: a) it is an inconsistent implementation to have some official scores from bridgemate with direct entries from players [matches not on vugraph] but others from indirect methods [vugraph] 1) is there an advantage then to being on vugraph rather than not? in the 2012 WMSG, a couple of countries paid WBF to ensure their country was on vugraph EVERY session. So, not only is the implementation of official scorer inconsistend, but so too is the selection of who's on vugraph. [another possible discussion topic] b) the operator has a tough enough time because players often 1) don't let operator see cards 2) don't clarify claims to operator 3) make claims that are inconsistent with the record of play 4) what about other irregularites? can/should the operator be a source of information for TD re: * BIT [breaks in tempo] * slow play in events where nationality can be a factor, there is a potential conflict of interest based on operator/competitor nationalities c) IF the operator is going to be an official source of information rather than a mechanism of unofficial historian then checks & balances are needed. these would need to include 1) PLAYER responsibility regarding getting correct information to the operator 2) Operator responsibility AND RIGHTS ex: just obligated to ask "can you confirm the claim" vs questioning validity of claim 3) a mechanism to highlight results that are in question IF BBO result was a SUPPLEMENT to the scoring record, I agree that there should be a comparison of the entered scores. But i think it should be an automatic software comparison rather than another manual step for the operator who needs fewer rather than more distractions from trying to capture bids, alerts, play and claims when the current software often hinders operator ability to keep pace. I do like the idea of keeping the table/.lin file open until the results become Official A very important key that is missing is a definition of the goals of vugraph Is it a requirement/goal/wish that vugraph become an OFFICIAL record/arbiter? If so, then more must be done to ensure accuracy beyond giving operator more manual steps. Al

I've gone through the permutations of the 3 browsers on a laptop and desktop running through a router [laptop via wireless, desktop via ethernet]. I haven't, but will see if things change when i bypass router with direct connection to the cable modem. The first time i used IE successfully, it was not local prime time, but moments earlier i had nothing but trouble with the Chrome instance. Yesterday during the final round of the Spingold it was local prime time for me on a Sunday -- and transmission was very broken up while using IE8. At least Uday's comments seem to rule out end-users hardware. I've heard that Flash Player is in end-of-life mode. Perhaps then next generation software will alleviate our woes. Thanks for the follow-up. If I see any variation based on testing other permutations, I'll post the scenarios and results Al

Just to clarify - in the hope that maybe we'll get a response from a BBO programmer: 1) the problem i have is LISTENING to voice commentary. i only do written commentary so don't know about issues with transmitting, only receiving 2) the same issues occur whether i log into bbo via browser or access voice without login via www.bridgebase.com/client/vugraph.php 3) the most common and most annoying issue is failure to hear large percentage of discussion 4) lesser issue, which also happens using the dreaded IE, is broken repeats of what commentator has said PLEASE clarify if issues are: a) on the bbo side of things b) related specifically to browser being used c) other factors such as ram, voice card, etc Al

I have the same problem described by Hedy with Chrome and Firefox Unfortunately I just finished problem-free session using IE I say that because I really dislike IE in all other respects sidebar -- shouldn't this thread be in Vugraph Issues Forum [or Suggestions for the Software] ? Al

Jan, I think there are 2 very different approaches to take here, depending on what BBO is willing to code. There is a lot here, so take in small doses. Most readers probably want to skip to the final section "PLAYER INFO" 1) Vugraph Operator Assistance The database is used by operator to: a) eliminate the typing test b) standardize player name*, especially important with european names in asian venues and vice versa [example depending on size of BBO field van Prooi, vProoijen, Rico van P, etc] c) automagially assign national flag d) place in correct seat e) associate with correct team * I'd like to see the table/session name standardized too [ex to allow search of "Trials", but that is outside of the scope of Jan's project Ideally, BBO would automatically extract information from the host. example from recent Vanderbilt: ACBL must have electronic copy of team rosters. Software could read the electronic information and parse team name, player name & country. This should be even easier in World Championships where team name = country Of course, operator could always override the auto-filled data [happens often with flags] 1a) With the infrastructure of code that grabs and processes information from an external source, a second source could provide information that would be entered in the Player Profile open text field. Ideas for that type of information follow under "Player Info" An approach that would require much less BBO design/coding ... 2) Viewer Assistance [includes spectators and vugraph commentators] Vugraph Operator would still need to enter data manually, but perhaps this could assist with opportunities to copy/paste. ex: copy/paste player name for consistent historical records and/or manually add the link for this player's info into the profile field. [note that this would need to be done/confirmed every session] This database would be a standalone set of data, so there are no real limitations on what information can/should be captured BBO would only provide a link, but even that can be done in a couple of ways. Possibilities include, but aren't limited to: a) static link on the vugraph home page [so available even if no vugraph sessions running] b) link(s) specific to a particular vugraph match (1) based on team name(s) [applies to both tables of match] (2) based on partnership (3) based on player PLAYER INFO [i'm sure many other pieces of info would be fun/useful to capture] 01) Name as it should be displayed on vugraph 02) Full Name 03) nationality [how to handle plays for country X but lives in country Y] 04) vugraph partner(s) 05) vugraph team(s) [ex: lauria-versace play for Italy in world championships, a specific team in Italian events and another in ACBL NABCs 06) typical seat [most sit in same seat depending on whether playing NS/EW this could help vugraph operator setup room correctly] 07) BBO login name 08) nickname 09) link to online convention card(s) 10) URL to a player's web page 11) name of system played in each vugraph partnership 12) link to WBF bio page 13) link to non-proprietary system info 14) list/link for .lin files for player/partnership from previous vugraph sessions I suspect others might ask for more personal information such as year of birth, but I'm trying to stick to bridge-data [Fields that would require interviewing players] 101) favorite convention(s) 102) link to favorite convention(s) 103) favorite tournament 104) favorite tournament site 105) ranking of different forms of events [round robin, ko, bam, etc] 106) favorite event(s) Warnings: A number of these fields are dynamic. Whether text or a link, somebody needs to maintain the field for accuracy. [example: is the link to ACBL convention card from 2009 Team trials still functional] System agreements change more often than access to online CC. Someone will need to decide whether to preserve links to CCs that are known to be obsolete or provide a way to let the viewer know that the entry is for historical purposes only. Obviously I haven't really thought about this, so ideas are limited :) Al

David -- Thanks so much for the explanation It was mystery to me throughout Day 1 Now -- do you know what, if any carryover goes into the 48 board Final/Playoff Al

My copy is 5th Printing from 1979. No ISBN info was included.

I know that in some years New Zealand teams pay their own way. Don't quote me, but they seem to go through most of the permutations for Open, Women and Senior Teams. Only the Juniors seem to be subsidized all of the time

I consider the New Forum detailed content of e-mail [especially the Daily Post Digest] a huge improvement allowing both immediate assessment of interest without a browser, but also for offline usage. However, there is a problem in that Suit Symbols visible in the Forum aren't translated to the e-mail. I'm not sure if the mail contains <null> or a space, but neither is workable for the reader. Is there a way for the Forum => E-mail parser to convert the suit symbols into something that retains the intent of the poster? If the problem is an issue with symbol availability based upon e-mail reader font, a generic solution could be: Translation of Suit Symbol to the capitalized letter of the suit name ♣=>C ♦=>D ♥=>H ♠=>S This seems workable -- at least for Forums NOT targeted as using a language other than English. I don't know if languages that use other alphabets use the same or different ways to refer to suit names when symbols are unavailable. Thanks Al

Quick updates are available at http://bridgewinners.com/running-live-scores but don't stop there - the site offers up many goodies

I'm sure there are other sites, but just confirmed this URL from New Zealand http://www.nzcba.co.nz/international/wbf blank card word format.doc

Convention cards for all participants [and other useful info] are available online under http://www.ecatsbridge.com/Events/ebl/2010ostend/default.asp At that level there are zip files of CCs for all teams within a specific event Open http://www.ecatsbridge.com/Documents/files...s/OpenTeams.zip Women http://www.ecatsbridge.com/Documents/files...WomensTeams.zip Senior http://www.ecatsbridge.com/Documents/files...SeniorTeams.zip If you want to drill down by Event then Country Open http://www.ecatsbridge.com/documents/docde...;files\May Women http://www.ecatsbridge.com/documents/docde...;files\May Senior http://www.ecatsbridge.com/documents/docde...;files\May

Glitch with viewing Hands and Results Recent Hands lists the 11 boards just completed, but then behavior is bizarre a) Double-click on board #2 displays board #10 scoresheet is wrong, displayed hands are correct b) << expect to show previous [lower] board but shows next board [increment by 1] c) >> expect to show next [higher] board but shows previous board [decrement by 1] Al

Just used web version for first time as player [vs kibitzer] Noticing differences between web & windows versions suggests the need for a matrix that shows intent of functionality differences between windows & web to determine whether behavior is: intended [don't bother posting observation], a glitch [requires writeup], pending port [no need to writeup], forgot to port [requires writeup], etc. This presentation would not need to show new functionality that adds to what windows version offers. Examples where i see loss of functionality 1) configuration of sounds strictly binary in web version whereas win allows tailoring of scenarios to mix sound on/off 2) session .lin file is not saved to disk with web version My BBO => Hands and Results => Recent Hands => Export Deal only seems to allow a) save of 1 hand at a time B) save as URL or entry in BBO database -- still no local copy 3) other entries have touched on differences with CC/FD handling 4) Win version allows mouse over running score to bring up Imp Table but this functionality not seen in web version To avoid redundancy in reporting/responding it would help if BBO had a pinned presentation that described whether an observation is: As designed - no change will be made Error - fix being worked Error - fix in to-do list Oversight - port being worked Oversight - port in to-do list etc Thanks Al

Unsubscribing from a Topic for the first time, I discovered that the instructions in the Forum e-mail don't match what is seen on Forum Page e-mail instructions are: Unsubscribing: -------------- You can unsubscribe at any time by logging into your control panel and clicking on the "View Subscriptions" link. OBSERVED: No link for "View Subscriptions" CORRECT LINK: Actual choice should be "View Topics" Thanks Al

My use of "typing tests" refers to anything that the operator must manually enter even though the information is already known in a way that could be captured and retrieved electronically. Examples will take us beyond the scope of the current thread, but will include that specific use case so I'll list some here: In World Championships, Zonals, Team Trials where pre-registration is required, all of the following is known before the tournament begins. Very little if any manipulation would be needed to parse the data in a form that could either be read/remembered/recalled by BBO. 1) Team Name 2) Team Roster 3) Player Nationality The first 2 eliminate the need for operator to * determine correct spelling * enter correctly * ask first name of player [no more confusion about Steve vs Howie Weinstein] When pre-registration is not used, the tournament officials still get to a point where there is an electronic capture of team/player information. Since this data is likely to be less rigidly formatted, then some careful data manipulation might be required. We should even be able to go outside the confines of a specific tournament to build a "database" of frequent fliers. i.e. players often seen on vugraph. Creating this bank of vugraph player profiles could then [always] include such goodies as: * player's BBO handle * link to official copies of partnership convention cards * player's web page/blog [only with their permission] * usually sits in direction X * etc There are many elegant scenarios that could be played out at this point, but the key issue is that the worst case scenario would be that the operator would just need to copy/paste info into the table or place a pre-defined bbo vugraph player account in the proper seat. The idea is that when electronic solution(s) are available, eliminate the randomness of vugraph data based upon operator: training, familiarity with players, spelling, typing, flag selection .... Since operator would always have the ability to override any data that was grabbed electronically, I don't see a downside to the concept. [note: design/implementation impact on diskspace, cpu usage, processing speed, etc is a different matter]

I don't recall ever seeing Fred or Uday responding to a forum entry that suggested software changes geared toward vugraph issues. However, if/when they decide to allocate resources, this is one of many situations where a software approach could: a) reduce reliance upon operator training :) minimize/eliminate operator typing tests c) improve the accuracy of the historical record If they'd be used, I would be happy to supply requirements, design options and/or testing.