rbforster

I was just going off the ACBL’s definition since that’s where I play, and for their purposes Artificial is anything not Natural or Quasinatural, so for unbalanced preempts this means denying 4+ cards in the suit bid. https://web2.acbl.org/documentlibrary/about/181AttachmentD.pdf

In addition, 2♠ promising 4+ is still “quasi natural”, again still with possible implications for other suits. “Artificial” is reserved for things neither natural nor quasi natural. 3(b) Any opening bid at the two-level or higher showing 4 or more cards in the suit bid In Basic, weak twos are Natural (5+) and weak 3’s require 6+ (with some Hcp requirements on 2’s) In Basic+, weak twos and 3’s are Natural (5+), (with fewer hcp restrictions on 2’s) In Open, various types of weak or possibly weak Artificial openings are disallowed, but natural and quasi natural (4+) are fine, subject to a few hcp restrictions In Open+, somewhat fewer weak or possibly weak Artificial openings are disallowed (usually to protect the top players from things like 2♥ multi) I have yet to figure out if I want to preempt with 4 card suits for a weak two, ie 2H majors / Ekrens (4+/4+), but it’s fine in Open, or similar things that have the suit they bid.

Looks like 3343 would bid 2♦, lacking 4M or 5♣?

If your partner makes a positive response instead of 1D, you are better placed. You know a fair bit about his shape, his values, and in almost all cases, you will be well below 2N (which you might have opened instead). There will be space to using asking bids, relays, etc, to taste starting from a lower level and hence you can find out more information. With a relay system, you will be able to get partners full shape after a positive response, and often be able to get an ask about his general strength as well, all below 3N.

I use 1C-1D(including all negatives)-1N as one range and 1C-1D-1H(art)-1S(waiting)-1N for the other of the two lowest balanced ranges. 22+ would bid higher at one point or another. You need to have a few more systems to allow 1C-1D-1H artificial to work, but it’s not too bad.

I’m not sure about your 1C structure is, but for me, I can stop at 1N (or as if I opened 1N, ie transfers, etc) with both the 16-18 and 19-21 ranges. Yes, this allows the opps to overcall 1C when they might not have otherwise been able to if I opened 2N, but at the same time, I can do much better slam bidding via relays if uncontested and have a better idea of if I want to explore while still below 3N. I think uncontested that it it’s clear 1C is better, so if you are fairly sure you’re losing on frequent competitive situations due to not having a split balanced range, that would be a good reason to consider the natural 2N. Against this, when one hand is balanced, it’s more often others will be too, so your opponents are less likely to have a good hand for interference when you’ve got a big balanced hand than for example if you have a big one suiter. Or you could play 2N as 12-14 like Zia did in some high variance tournament where he was swinging ;).

I have not. Can you link it so I can check it out?

For a while I tried to get a 2/1 non-forcing, non-constructive framework to work over a limited/precision 1M opener. The general idea was that 1N was forcing and included all GF hands without M support, while 1M-2x would be a 5-6+ suit with short M somewhat like a weak two. After 1M-1N, opener responded like a forcing NT in 2/1 making a natural rebid, after which responder could pass, preference to 2M, or bid a new suit to show a GF hand. Even with lots of articulate responses at that point, there just wasn’t space to reasonably sort out possible fits below 3N with many possible responding GF hands. This was partially hobbled by trying to be GCC at the time, which precludes things like transfers over 1M and such, that seem more promising.

Thanks for the explanation. Good luck in handling the extra load and I look forward to these solitaire versions returning to their old state once things settle down on your end.

Same question, the sizes of all the cards are super big now compared to how they were this weekend, in addition to the player/chat list starting on that side by default. I seem to remember a way to adjust the font size but that seems to be gone too. I also can’t get the double dummy results anymore when looking at the hand results. Animations when playing are also much slower. Edit: there do seem to be some new features, like being able to only see certain hands when you replay the hand in the results, and letting you declare when your partner robot steals the contract from you. For comparison, you can see the difference if you look at the Practice->Bridge Master teaching hands, which use the old format, and the Solitaire->Just Play Bridge, or Bridge 4 ones, which use the new format.

a slight tweak to that might be 1♠ 4♠ and longer minor 1N 4♥ and longer minor 2N strong unbalanced no 4M You could probably put the (41)44 hands into the 4M unbalanced openings instead of 1♣ if you wanted.

If you want to include those, it looks like you could use 1H-2S or 1S-2D. Do you really need 1H-1S forcing natural as well as a 1H-2S invitational jump? You could consider using 1H-1S-rebid-3S as your invite along the lines of normal 2/1. It’s not as low, sure, but maybe it’s ok. If 1S-2D shows hearts less than a GF (assuming your could relay with a heart GF), possibly weak with long hearts, it’s not getting passed in 2D, right? So maybe there’s space in your openers rebid structure to allow 3m to be a GF minors hand as well as weak-invitational with hearts if openers typical responses are 2H/2S/3H (maybe make 2N a H superaccept instead of 3H jump raise to stay lower). Another option might be give up your (Jacoby?) 1M-2N response. What types of responding major fit hands do you typically not want to relay ask with? You do have void splinters and maybe there’s space in your 1M-(2M-1) raise to include a few odd GF raises hands like maybe singleton splinters, ie 1S-2H(raise)-2S-4m. If you free up 2N, you can use that to show both single suited GF minors hands along the lines of strong Solloway jumps if you use relays, ie 1S-2N-3C(relay): 3D strong diamonds hand 3H strong hearts hand(?, that wanted to show instead of relay) 3S clubs with 4+ major support, no shortness 3N solid clubs 4C not solid clubs 4DH splinter with good clubs and major support 4S as 3S but fast arrival so not as slam interested Over 3D or 3H, opener relays again and you use all the same answers as above to describe which type of strong D or H hand they have (except possibly 3S-vs-4S might not be available). You can do a similar thing for jumps over 1H but then the space works best if you use 1H-2S as the strong jump so there’s space to unwind it all below 4H according to the above scheme.

I seem to remember the “simple” defense to precision 2D was “double and lead trump”. As such, a 14+ balanced hand or similar probably wants to start with a double and aim for penalties. Furthermore, with bad breaks in most non-♦ suits, overcalls should be made more cautiously and on better/longer suits, ie for 2M overcalls.

Start transfers with XX as suggestion / transfer to NT, where opener can bid something else if he has good shape. After 1N, you can give meanings to new suits (two suiters DONT style?) as well as returning to 2M (maybe 3M invite?). Pass followed by any action from responder shows the strong misfit hand, ie X is penalty, NT bids are natural. With transfers to a two level suit, opener will accept if he doesn’t have anything exceptional to bid, ie good 5/5 or good 6+ suit rebid. Then responder can bid 2N or self raise (invite), or return to 2M (weak fit with lead direction, or however you want to play it), or bid a new suit as a natural GF.

Here’s the basics. In a relay sequence, after asking for AKQ=321 points, https://bridgewithdan.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/IMprecision.pdf Also try searching just this forum (Non-Natural) for the word “parity”. You should see a collection of posts PCB## from 2017 where different hands are bid, as well as another set on Auction Termination from 2013 with examples. There are only 2-3 pages of threads in total.

I think there are two main benefits of a modern precision system. First, you can open lighter if you want, say (9)10-15, and give your opponents more trouble while still handling the continuations tolerably via a 2/1 approach. Sure it will be more precise if you play 11-15 old style precision, but opening light can put the opponents into their much less precise competitive bidding methods more often and also lets you open a few lighter preempts as well (since for a fixed preempt range, you can shift everything down a bit since the 1 level openers are lighter, say 3-9 instead of 5-11). You could also play SAYC instead of 2/1, or even relays over your 1 level openers, but I have not been convinced these are meaningfully better approaches rather than just different, so if you’re comfortable with 2/1 I’d just go with that. Second, you can play relays over your strong club. Which relay system you play doesn’t matter much, but getting responder’s full shape below 3N with an option to continue with honor scans if things look promising is quite valuable. There are many relay systems but again I think 90% of the benefit is playing any relay system, so pick whichever one you like and can remember. Symmetric relays like TOSR are easier to learn and remember, so that might be a good place to start. The transfers are also a nice feature.

Although be aware that system uses 1D as balanced or diamonds, but excludes long diamonds single suited (which opens 2D). Some of the unbalanced continuations by 1D opener assume it’s a 3-suited hand or both minors. As an alternative, here’s the outline for a 1D (2+ nat or balanced, 9-15hcp) response for 1D-2C. This 1D is a bit lighter/wider than yours, so adjust your strength ranges according. For 1D-2D, I play that as inverted with 4+ D and no 4M, F1. 1D-2C showing 4+ clubs 10+ pts F1 2D​ any minimum, 9-12ish, but without good club support (non-forcing and passable) 2H​ extras with a 4cM 13-15, could be balanced or unbalanced 2S​ extras 12-15, unbalanced with 1 or both minors 2N​ 13 balanced no 4cM 3C​ 4+ clubs min (9-11) 3D ​6+ diamonds invitational (12-13) 3N​ 14-15 balanced no 4cM

Thanks for the extra info on your system. Yes, there are some ways to just bail in 1♦ without knowing if you have a fit, but I think you can do better. Let’s suppose you want to keep your basic framework, rather than using a precision base in 3/4. For the 5M332 hands, your Drury should handle things fine and let these 8-10 hands bail into 2M, along with any other light openers you might make in 3rd. Even with a fit opposite a 13 balanced pass (or a 9 count unbalanced fit), game seems pretty far off. For the rest, let’s try putting them all into 1♣. Not sure what style of TWalsh you play, but looking at this one http://bridge.mgoetze.net/21twalsh.pdf It seems like you could respond the same way with 8-10 as well as 11-13 balanced hands, ie complete the transfer and then passed responder could continue if desired. The main point is that by using P-1♣-1N to show 11-13 balanced, possibly with a 4M, you pretty much break off all the game invitational possible hands opposite the 8-13 NT range. now when the passed hand responds 1M-1 they have at most 9 unbalanced or 10 balanced which seem like cases you’re just looking to find a good fit rather than explore for game. I guess you may have to tweak your TWalsh responses to not have 1N available (used for the strongest balanced PH). Maybe 2m is natural 5+ and limited to 9-10ish, while 1♠ covers balanced hands up to 10 with no 4M? or maybe you keep transfers and 1♠ is the weaker balanced or clubs and 2♣ is diamonds unbalanced?

So the strong hands possible shapes are (31)45 (but not (40)45?), and also longer clubs like xx46 or xx47? Can your GF balanced include 5M332?

Yeah, thinking a bit more about your system I realize you’d need some tweaks to make my approach work and putting the 8-10 balanced into 1♣ is probably better for you and then handle it with TWalsh or an artificial 1♦ response or similar. The difference is that my 3/4th seat 1♣ is precision so all the other bids are limited and I can get away with passing a 3/4th 1♦/1M with hands in the 5-9 range if they don’t have a good bid while your 1♦ is potentially a lot stronger so those minimum responders without a major definitely need to find a response to keep the auction alive at least for one round. Am I reading your original system correctly that your 1m openers are unlimited and forcing? I’m not sure what country / regulations you’re playing under -if it’s US/ACBL, let me know and I can try to make something work. For the US, 1m showing 3+ cards is fine for example, but that means you’d need to sometimes open 1C and sometimes 1D depending on your shape. If you tell me your passed hand responses to 1M normally 10-21 unbalanced, that might help too. How important is your 1D opener being unbalanced? I was thinking maybe you could tweak your 3/4th TWalsh by putting the 11-13 balanced in 1D and replacing 11-13 with 8-10 in 1C. I’m not sure what your 1D-1M-1N sequence shows (20-22 balanced?) but maybe that can be 11-13 now and you bid 2N with the big hand? Maybe something like this would work? Not a TWalsh approach, but another alterative. P-1♣ 10+ natural or various balanced, including all 8-10 balanced with no 5M P-1M now 8-21 instead of 10-21, could be 8-10 balanced 5M And after P-1♣: 1♦ 0-4 any or 5-10 no 4M (this latter case has 3+ diamonds) 1M 4+ natural response, 5-10ish 1N 11-13 bal, could have 4M 2♣ 5+ 5-9ish no 4M Then with the 8-10 NT you maybe can get away with passing the 1D response since it’s so low and will often be a fit or opponents will have game.

Nice to see some interest in this. If you look at my methods quoted above from the older thread, you should be able to swap my “0-9 any or 13-15 balanced” to “0-9 any or 10-12 balanced” pretty easily by using a 13-15 (14-16?) NT in 1-2nd instead of a 10-12 one. As you say, you’re not strictly trying to do a “pass=balanced” system where all distributional hands are preempted with 0-9 ala Lorenzo Twos or something (which is pretty crazy Vul), but just include more balanced hands in the pass. I understand you’re trying to use your current 1-2nd methods in 3/4 as much as possible but I would suggest a slightly different approach. overloading your 1♠ in 3/4 by now having it possibly be 8-10 balanced (2+ spades) seems like it could lead to some bad results if passed when actually balanced (so could be a very poor fit), or when a weaker passed partner has to bid 1N semiforcing and always play 1N when they might well have a longer suit fit if the PH was unbalanced. You’re cramped on space, so outcomes will be less good, and you may also have a harder time with more important constructive auctions after a natural 1S opener in 3/4. I would suggest using 1♦ to include the 8-10 balanced range instead, which I guess will need different methods than you use now, but gives you a lot more space to find a good place to play. Broadly, I would suggest natural responses to P-1♦, and if that opener has the 8-10 balanced they just pass 1M after P-1♦-1M. Then you can still play your normal methods for non pass rebids (not ideal for some passes of 1M, but simple; you could switch up your 1♦ rebid system to include a 1N rebid as 8-10 balanced if you want). If it goes P-1♦-1N, I would suggest that should promise the high end of the balanced pass range, here 11-13 balanced for your proposed system with a 14-16 NT opener. Note that bidding 1N as an 11-13 bal PH takes priority over showing 4cM with 1M, then you can just pretend it was a NT opener and play normal strong NT methods stayman etc. If you have less than 11 balanced and no 4M, you either pass 1D or bid whatever 2C/2D are over 1D by a PH if you’ve got enough of that minor. Maybe those would be 5+ suits, NF, 6-9ish, given you open 10+ unbalanced hands in 1/2nd already? More discussion and details of my approach in this old thread: http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/20775-another-semi-forcing-pass-idea/

Thanks Adam, that looks perfect. Solves the 3-vs-4 card raise issue, as well as getting a cheap force with 2♣ over 1N showing diamonds instead of 3♣ over 2♦ natural. If I get ambitious, I may eventually try the Gazelli version to split up my light opener ranges, but the basic structure seems quite playable and I’ll start with that.

I was thinking recently that the normal 2/1 sequence: 1♥-1♠-1N seemed pretty underused in my style, and so 1N might be used as an artificial bid to free up various raises, Gazelli style options, or the like. Has anyone tried this, perhaps in a framework where 1♥ is always unbalanced? For context, this is 16+ precision ♣ system with a 10-12 NT including 5Ms, so the 1NT rebid here currently shows 13-15 and 5♥332. I’m willing to raise 1♠ with 3♠ and a doubleton if the hand seems more suit oriented, so 1N is pretty much exactly 2533 shape or some NT oriented 35(32)s. This seems awfully specific for the cheapest rebid. If the alternative was having to rebid a 3 card minor over 1♠ instead, that doesn’t seem so different than how the same hand responds after a forcing NT response - not ideal, but not a huge issue or at least one I’m used to. I have lots of ideas for how to use the “free” 1N rebid, like for showing extra strength or transfers or whatnot. here is a transfer version: 1♥ -1♠: 1N clubs, or balanced with extras (intended as forcing, but this is precision). over a 2C pref, bid again with a 35(32) hand 2♣ 4+ diamonds 2♦ 6+ hearts 2♥ minimum 3 card spade raise (NF) 2♠ minimum 4 card spade raise Alternatively, 1N could show any hand with extra strength (13-15 here), so the natural rebids of 2 of a suit would be less forward going (catering to our potentially light openers). 1♥-1♠-1N any maximum, not super distributional (ie a good 5/5 might jump to 3m). Then, 2♣ weak, pass or correct, club preference over hearts. If balanced, opener bids 2S with 3 (to play the 4-3) or else passes with 2533. 2♦ invitational+ ask, Gazelli style continuations. 2♥ weak, preference

In that spirit, if you open light in 3rd seat (I know SMP isn’t a light opening version of precision, but it’s no major changes to play the precision non-1♣ bids as 9-15 instead of 11-15), you could just pass all those troublesome hands entirely. If partner can’t open light in 3-4th, you probably won’t miss anything and 4441 hands aren’t a super promising shape anyway. I take this a bit farther with my Silent Club strong club system and pass the precision 2♣ hands as well, but that presumes you want 2♣ free for a weak or other use.

Currently I don’t show lots of freak shapes explicitly in relays, but agree to “fudge” things beyond 7 card suits or 65 two suiters. So maybe 8221 shows 7321, 6610 shows 6520, 8311 shows one of the singletons as 7321, etc. From a frequency perspective, you should consider the odds of the various strength of common hands that you could show more easily by excluding these from your relays, which are probably still more likely than all the freak hands of a given shape. Yes, you’ll be worse off when those freaks show up, but more often then you get interference and the relays don’t matter anyway. Here are the odds including the higher shapes. http://www.rpbridge.net/7z77.htm#2