driver8

Yes, in my experience much less frequently. Regardless though, I am not sure how that renders the request less valid. If they are autoremoved they can immediately reclick the button after sitting for 1-2 boards if they want to continue subbing.

Automatically remove a player from the subs list once they have been seated as a sub. I have often experienced being invited to a game, sitting for 18-20 boards and then immediately, upon conclusion of that game, being invited again by a different virtual club or team game because I am apparently still on the list of subs. I can't speak for everyone obviously but I need a few minutes to decompress after playing and I also don't feel good about or want to have to go and find and then explain to a TD that I just finished a game and am sorry for turning down their invite. If the system were able to automatically remove a player from the subs list once they have accepted an invite and been seated, that would solve the issue. Those who sub can always click the sub button again when they are ready.

That is my understanding too. Yes, I totally get that TD's can seat anyone and the player does not have to be "friended." My comment about players having to be previously friended was regarding getting on the "club list of substitutes" as you called it. By navigating to a running game and clicking that sub button. Meaning I don't think - and I could be wrong about this obviously - that non-club members (non-friended players) can even get their names on that particular list. It has never let me do it anyway. Not when I try to volunteer for an already running club game. I always get a "this game is not open to the public message" so I am not sure how you, as a TD, would even know I was trying to use that button to volunteer for one of your specific games that was already running. You and me both! At the very least BBO could separate the random Team Games from the virtual club pairs games. Being bombarded by repeated invites from "Untitled" team games is irritating. For the record I have a "home" virtual club that I value a great deal and play in probably an average of 4 times a week. But I know folks who don't have a club. And what about all of those players who have joined after the parameters were set? They are all free agents as far as I can tell, aren't they? Not a chance. And I like BBO. It could just be better is all. And I think they should know of "bugs" or flaws that could irritate players who use the system. Take care!:)

First, thanks for the response. Truly. This is what I am beginning to suspect too. You'd agree that is a flaw in the system though correct? I mean you get an intermediate player with 200 masterpoints playing with novice with 50 in an Open virtual club game and they are auto-assigned "A." That just shouldn't be. It is unfair and if more <advanced substitutes realized that is the case, you may have a good number fewer subs to choose from pretty soon there after. Yes subbing is doing a service but there are a good number (thousands?) of ACBL registered members who are "free agents" due to the way the ACBL and local clubs and BBO set up the parameters when all of this started. "Free agents" who can play in any virtual club game and yet are not necessarily a member of any "local" virtual club. So, they end up subbing a lot and get screwed by this flaw. Yes, by the TD. But not by navigating to a "running" game and hitting the substitute button. I am not even sure why that button exists because by that point the TD is already in active search mode for subs and the only people who can make that particular list are those who are already friended by the TD account for that particular virtual club, yes? Agreed and I find zero problem with that. That is interesting. Is it onerous to use or something? Why are TD's asking me my point count if they can check is what I don't understand. And if it is onerous to use then BBO should upgrade the feature. Yes, that makes sense and is what I thought too. Haha, they are valued and appreciated but not that valued and appreciated. They ain't payin' so they should take what they can get. I get it. But to this exact point - was it a business decision to your knowledge? Speaking directly to my second question in my original post - was that the plan all along? I would actually be ok with that also if that is indeed the intended compromise and it was made plain. I don't like it being a coding/software problem and I don't like that no one seems to know exactly why (or can't give an simple answer as to why) it happens. Again, take out the international players. Take out the non-ACBL members. Two subs who are ACBL members with a total of 250 masterpoints between them playing in an virtual club Open Pairs game - why are they automatically placed in "A"? I would just really like to know the answer to that and I would like BBO to actually know the answer and be able to explain it. I don't think that's too much to ask for them to know their system. Again, thanks for your insights.

Actually what's interesting is that, in my experience, the only people who can volunteer to sub for specific virtual club games are players who are already "members" of that club (players the VACB account has "friended" via the profile). In which case, the TD's know the user names and players for the most part and would know a players basic true level and perhaps even approx masterpoint holding. Meaning, when I have tried to volunteer for already running games I always get a "this game is closed to the public" (or something along those lines) message. Which leads me to believe that one has to already be a "member" of that particular club. And there is no other way, barring PMing a TD directly, to volunteer to sub in a specific game before the game starts. So, I do think you are incorrect in thinking that just anyone can volunteer for specific club games via the substitute button for said specific game. What I was and have been referring to is the main sub button that you can click when you go to main page-> virtualclubs-> and then selecting any region. So, say North America, there will then be a substitute button on the bottom. And by selecting that, you get put on a list of subs. And to my knowledge that is the only list of subs that exists. And that list wouldn't be for only North American Pairs games btw. It adds you as a sub for any and all games. Which is a whole problem in and of itself. I am beginning to believe the problem of not putting subs in the proper stratum has to do with a flaw in the system. That once a game starts and TD's then invite and add players they need to fill out a table, that the system defaults those subs to "A" for some reason. Because they weren't pre-registered? I don't know exactly. I hope they can investigate and fix the issue though.

Then wouldn't the TD have to be in on the scam too? The TD's have to go out and find the replacements after all. It doesn't happen automatically and, as I understand the system, depending on time of day and other factors there are multiple subs waiting on a list to choose from. How often would it happen that, by chance, the TD would choose the desired "expert/fake novice" from the list? I understand your cynicism regarding cheating but I don't think that scenario could possibly happen without the conspiratorial participation of the Tournament Director. That does bring up another thing though. BBO should code into the system an automatic masterpoint check and retrieval done once a week by the system and then a player's masterpoint total should at least be available to the TD's as a hidden category to BBO users profile page. Then TD's wouldn't have to ask or wonder. I have had several TD's ask me about my masterpoint count so I know they don't know.

Virtual club Tournament Directors often pull in subs from the beginning of the game. In other words those subs start the game with the other players and the only thing they "replace" (if anything) is a "sitout" seat. I have subbed many times when I was not "filling in" for anyone but was invited and added along with another sub to fill out a table for the entire game. Regarding that though, maybe there is some insight in the statement "strata are assigned when the tournament starts". Subs are technically added after the tournament starts so maybe the system doesn't know what to do with players who aren't preregistered for the tournament? And the system just defaults to placing those subs in "A"? Whatever the case, unless it is a TD issue and they should be making some entry (checking some box or something) to ensure the correct stratum placement, the system has a flaw and is placing all subs - those subs that start the game from the beginning anyway - in strat A regardless of total masterpoint count or level of game. I have asked a few North American TD's why that happens and those few who did seem to realize it was happening said that it was a "BBO feature" that they had no control over and then suggested I "ask BBO".

Can anyone explain why substitutes are always counted as "A" strat regardless of masterpoint total in North American virtual club stratified pairs games? Is it so that the regular members of a virtual club who would fall into the "B" and "C" strats are given more leeway to achieve masterpoints? EDIT 6/15/21: Just wanted to update this thread for anyone who may read it in the future. While it is still a guess, I believe the most likely culprit is the "sitout" seat (as discussed briefly in a couple of the other responses to the thread). For the first time ever, today, I subbed in a game and placed in A,B, and C. I went the usual route of getting on the main subs list and was invited to a fairly large Open Pairs game. After the game ended and I saw that I wasn't only placed in "A," I bothered the TD about it and they were kind enough to answer some questions. It turns out that the seat I was placed into was previously occupied by another player who, with their partner, would fall into "C" in this open game. That pair had decided last minute that they would rather play in another game so the director found subs to fill those seats. So, my also sub partner (from France) and I ended up occupying those seats and ultimately being placed in the proper strat by accident because those seats were previously occupied and not Sitout seats. Well, technically not the correct strat I guess. Unless my French partner was also an ACBL member. Ironically we probably should have only been placed in "A". Anyway, I think the sitout seat is the issue. Or not the seat itself but rather the fact that the system doesn't stratify after the game starts. There is no further check or verification done so the sub will always be placed in "A" strat when invited and occupying a sitout seat. It'd be nice if BBO would fix it but it may not really be feasible to do so.

Add me to the list in agreement. The way it is set up is incredibly annoying.

Yet another post asking BBO to make the substituting system better - I enjoy substituting. In principle I think it is a great feature on BBO. So far I have subbed in games of virtual clubs in India, Scotland, England, Canada, France, Turkey, USA, etc. It's great playing with new people from different cultures. I don't mind being pulled into a pairs game for 3 boards in the middle of the game. People who sub should want to help out. I am all for it. It is a valuable part of the platform and helpful to virtual clubs and Tournament Directors. What I can not stand, and what is beginning to make me want to stay away from the substitute button altogether, is that there are zero player controlled options with regard to the region or type of game a player is willing to sub in. "I am willing to be a substitute in any tournament" is simply too broad. Especially when you are constantly bombarded with invites to random "Untitled" team games that no one wants to play in. The "Directors" of these games aren't shy about spamming the invite button over and over again either. You decline and they just invite again. And the player wanting to be a substitute? Two declines and you are taken off the substitutes list. It is incredibly frustrating. Please fix the substituting system. Add some player choice. Perhaps a list of regions and/or even specific types of games so a player can filter out random team games or games from regions where they may not speak the language. "North American Pairs" "European Pairs", "Asian Pairs", etc. By all means leave in the "Willing to sub in any tournament" as an option. But make it a choice. The way it is set up now makes it a battle of attrition and makes it an irritating process for players looking for a competitive game at a virtual club.

Or they could simply code in a filter which lets the player/substitute choose from a list of regions and/or types of games they are willing to sub in. That would cure most ills immediately. It is absurd that BBO doesn't give substitutes any discretion at all (besides a decline option and being booted from the sub list) with regard to which regions or types of games they are willing to sub in.