Great answer - I apologise for the original confusion in describing the situation.. YOU have understood every bit of it and provided a comprehensive reply and an understanding - yes, I see how 2S should be alerted as the systemic meaning. Yes, to the opener it must be natural and yes, I as opener did have 5161 hand. Thanks, and I will upload my hand when I know how to do these things, except that it was more an exercise in understanding what to do when things sometimes go wrong not in moaning about a bad board or asking how to bid a cold 4S! This response gives me a comprehensive understanding.