Brandal

Agree It is alot more important having defenses against the various conventions/bids opps throw your way, than what you choose to use in your system.

Expressions like "tactical bids" are fairly worthless when discussing psyches. A tactical bid is simply a psyche someone happens to approve of. (In much the same manner, a "destructive" bid is simply a preempt that someone happens to disapprove of). These are loaded terms which are intended to "spin" a debate and detract from the arguments actually being made. I am, of course, prepared to change my mind if you can provide some objective criteria that I can use to distinquish between tactical bids and mixed strategies... I doubt we'll ever agree,and that's ok with me, but the given hand example you posted can be opened at least with 1,2,3,4 Dia without gross misdescription of the hand? Opening it 1NT is another matter I guess. And 5D would just be a bad bid red vs white in my opinion. These are just my opinions,I don't think I know better or think I'm "right" in any way,I believe forums are for debates,not being right

This looks more like tactical bids,or "table feel" bids than psyches. In this scenario you draw,does both partners in the pair apply this mixed strategy? "Ah....this time I have to open 1NT....cool".....is more bingo than bridge to me (I know you don't like my "way") :P I have no doubt whatsoever that the strategy might work, I just don't like it....I hope that's fair enough :)

I believe I used the word disregard,not disrespect, with disregard I meant "barring" partner from being in the loop on that particular hand,he is pretty much left in the dark? I am NOT complaining about anything,don't know where you get that idea,nor am I attacking "your side".

i think this part is the cause of some of the posts you got... if you think about it, it really isn't logical... is it selfish because you say it is, or is it objectively selfish? we both know that you're just voicing an opinion... the opinions of others seem to differ and, as you say, they have the laws of bridge on their side i would argue that a psych is an altruistic act... i'm risking a blow to my ego to help my team (and/or teammates)... but regardless of our positions, both are mere opinion - worth exactly what one is willing to pay Yes,ofcourse it's just my opinion of the psyche itself, deciding to go on my own whim outside the partnership. The reason I don't psyche anymore(I did psyche in my "youth"), is I have become uncomfortable with the ethical side. :) Never seen anyone else call it selfish,never called it selfish myself until yesterday. :D Maybe from what I've written earlier,it's not easy to see but I don't feel strongly either way about the psyche itself.

You seem to have a LOT of issues about psyches: Last I heard, the problem was that the player who was making a psyche was disrespecting his partner.... Regardless I said it before, I'll say it again: I believe that the legal construct "psyche" should be striken from the Law. The behaviour pattern that a psyche attempts to describe should be replaced with more formal structures based on the concept of a mixed strategies. The root cause of the habitual fights surrounding psyches has a very simple cause: The legal constructs which govern the game are not harmoniously aligned with the strategies that players wish to employ. The disclosure problems that you are currently complaining about is a simple reflection of this fact... Until you permit players the tools that they require to describe their actions, you shouldn't complain about the quality of their disclosure... Nice debating techniques you have To make it clear: The "thing" is why I don't personally apply these mixed strategies,the ethics part. My opinion that I find it selfish to psyche doesn't rule out me having another reason not to psyche? You seem very entitled to your opinions,why mock mine?

I will never argue anything of that sort,I'm the first to applaud opponents who outsmart me,be it in bidding or cardplay. I played a tournament the other day where the host/TD said "announce at start of round if you use bluffs/psyches" What's next,play showing all 4 hands? :rolleyes:

If you honestly believe that the player making a psyche "disregards" his partner's place, than you have no idea how psyches work. First and foremost, psyches aren't "random". How often do you see players psyche a 7NT overcall? How often do they psyche red versus white? Mixed strategies are employed in precise ways and at precise times. Case in point: Most players employ mixed strategies opposite partners who have limited their hand in some way. For example, partner might be a passed hand. Alternatively partner has made a limited opening bid - a 1M opening in a Precision context is a standard example, as is a preemptive bid like a "standard" weak 2M opening. Its more effective to psyche opposite a limited hand for two reasons: 1. The player making the psyche is much better positioned to judge whether the opponents have game (potentially slam). The player making the psyche can make an accurate assessment of risk versus reward 2. The limited hand isn't in a position to "surprise" partner. The player making the psyche should have anticipated potentially rebids by the limited hand and is well positioned to control the auction. I hear you Richard,and I have no problems at all with all your points,you make a good case. BUT.....and this is my "thing" regarding psyches: How does a regular partnership handle the ethics,when does it become an implicit agreement,is it possible to psych say....1 time every 50 boards,and not letting it become an ethical problem? How do regular partnerships handle this,do they say upfront we might psych or we may not? How does this affect opponents in that case,when you announce we occasionally psyche,are there ethical problems with that too? Is it fair to say in a regular partnership,the partner will probably suspect the psyche before the opps do? In few words,it's the ethical side that bothers me,not the psych

Bidding is clearly more than just a tool to get to declaring/defending. Bidding also provides a lot of information for declarer/defender. Think of a psyche as a false-card in the bidding. Just as falsecards can come in many different varieties (false count, false suit preference, false attitude, playing an unnecessary honour, etc.), so can psyches in the bidding. A psyche can be done by bidding a suit you do not hold, or showing strength you do not have, showing a stopper when you do not have one, making a cuebid in a suit you do not have a control in, doubling a cuebid when you have nothing in the suit, etc. Just as in falsecards, psyches risk partner misinterpreting as much as opponents. A psyche is a gamble. It (might) make things harder for opponents, but it also makes it harder for your own side too. I believe your statement that you are the only one at the table who knows what's going on is like saying that once the opponents psyche, I am not allowed to think. For a quick example, suppose your RHO opens and then passes a forcing bid. Do I not think that something strange has happened? I don't understand the other parts of your argument. How is psyching any more selfish than preempting? or falsecarding? The objective of a psyche is to place doubts in your opponents' (and as a consequence your partner's) minds. You are deliberately misstating your distribution and/or strength. That's the definition of a psyche. You are making a gamble that the opponents will believe you and not find their own best contract. If you are not skilled as an opponent to reveal the psyche and find your best contract, then I might suggest not playing a strong club where opponents will often come in on "cheese". Finally, the point that it is legal is exactly why we should learn how to psyche and how to cope with our opponent's psyching. It is not just a matter of saying "that's unfair" and "my opponents are being unsportsmanlike". We might as well argue that falsecarding is illegal too and maybe throw in preempts as well. Then we can all play with our cards face up and show our true skill which is double dummy bidding and play. This one I buy :rolleyes: But since preempts are normally part of system agreements I wouldn't call them selfish. But clearly falsecarding etc can be viewed same way as psyches Good reply,thanks Echognome

My point is the psych also throws partner off the deep end, the psycher disregards partner's place in the partnership for that hand... And yes,I stand by my opinion that this is selfish. You're completely wrong in assuming I think psyches are distasteful or constrains my enjoyment of the game. I was simply asking a few questions sprung from curiousity. Sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes.

Just a quick question. Does your wife psych too or is it just a guy-thing? :rolleyes: I'm "one of those" who think bidding is just a tool to get me to the fun part of declaring or defending. A psych is a selfish act,"you" decide to be the only one at the table who knows exactly what's going on,leaving pd in the dark but trusting him to rescue "you" by not bidding like "you" have what you bid. I know,but it's legal to psych,that's really the only argument I hear from that corner. So,is it fun to psych,for whom is the psych fun,and why on earth is this so important to some? And once again,yes I know it's legal. :rolleyes: (even tho I replied to you Al,this isn't directed at you) :)

As I recall, BidEdit is a standalone application which is no longer being updated... I'd recommend against using it... I'm not sure the extent to which Fred and Uday are worrying about full backwards compatibility... This "bidedit" is the same version that runs when you are online. This allows you to edit your files when not on. When you click on this "bidedit" it gives you the current "version number". Now if this will eventually stop being so, I don't know. Hi Ben Is it possible to edit existing bid descriptions,i.e. in the SAYC 1C and 1D opening the description/explanation is 3+ on both. I prefer my 1D opening to be 4+ and 1C to be 2+,is there a way,or do I have to create "my own" system for this?

I downloaded the "full install with all the files" and both FD systems and FD conventions are installed with me.

Looking at East's hand,two alternatives comes to mind.. A: Agreement that X is for penalty ,or B: No idea what they're doing... I would consider this alertable,but let the result stand. Contract is 1H,if "you" don't fancy playing there,or somewhere else if partner bids,then don't bid 1H.

I agree this is not the proper way to handle this. However I was kibitzing this pair,since they are good friends of me too,and there was indeed accusations of foul play based on one single board. Thank goodness kibitzing was allowed :ph34r: That way at least I could calm my friends after the ordeal, they were very upset.

Friendlist: 3 Enemy: 0

I'm sure all these are more or less valid points, but I don't recall many supporting barring kibs here... But maybe "we" who don't like kibs disallowed are a minority,or are you doing what "we" shouldn't..... assuming?

While I sympathize with and understand pay tournaments barring kibs........ I honestly don't see the point of free tournaments going that way,just now I found ONE from about 10 tournaments allowing me to kib. I really enjoy kibbing friends playing tournaments,almost as much as playing them,and I hardly ever get to do that anymore. Watching the "disease" spreading,it seems almost like a trendy thing to do....."everyone else is barring kibs,must be a reason, better go with the flow" kinda thing. oh well,rant over for now :)

From what you're writing here,I'd be on the lookout for a nicely priced new computer and get broadband before I worried about whether people would wait for me on BBO or not... Sounds like serious hardware issues that can go belly up any day.

Sounds probable....would check cpu-fan, graphics-card fan,cabinet-fan. If you don't have a cabinet-fan or even two, it could be a generally overheated mainboard too. I have 3 cabinet-fans,one very big that cools the 3 harddrives,also important. Can NEVER get too much cooling :)

If this is how you reason when pd X 1S opener, I have alot to learn :) Isn't it just as likely this pair use X=pen and bid=constructive?

Well....you do....so why can't we? Apologies, that's my poor English :( . Maybe "correct" instead of "good" will be better ? "good" was meant as "according to Laws and produced good result" or so. I am quite experienced on and off TD. I am not entitled to adjudicate whether a bid is good or bad. I may not. Sufficient, alerted, explained, made in tempo are my categories. No law has been broken in this case. Dusan No problem Dusan :o I happen to think insufficient explanations are a bigger/ more frequent problem than cheating...... And I also agree EW could have rescued themselves, but I have problems with south's pass being "correct" over a "normal" T/O double of 1S. Maybe North didn't fully explain? Because the pass makes more sense in that scenario.... :) oh well

1. The pair seem to be a somewhat established partnership, or at least have played quite a few tourneys together lately. 2. They happened to win the tourney,this board was in the middle,and south disconnected before or during the last hand when I suppose is the time when jillybean questioned about the pass.

Well....you do....so why can't we? ;) Only looking at South's hand,passing is not an option for me,but I'm not claiming they cheat,just a feeling there's more to the X than T/O. Not having a good bid isn't good enough reason to pass surely?

From South's view,EW might well have 10 tricks in spadecontract. Sounds like you're "rationalizing" having seen all 4 hands :) Passing a T/O dbl of 1S with a king and nothing more? Man there would be a lot of dbld 1-level contracts if we thought about passing with a King or less :)