MarceldB

Regarding innovation I saw in r.g.b a very good hit, which I would like to quote here: "Unless you play a totally natural system, at least one of your bids (most likely more than one) is a conventional call. If it is conventional, it must have been at some stage invented and developed, if it has been invented, it has at some stage been an innovation. If you have decided to adopt this convention (or system) you must see some merit in it. So innovation is good for bridge - from your point of view at least with the respect to the conventions you have decided to use. And now that you are happy with your system and conventions you have chosen, you want to restrict the right of other people to chose their own innovations, conventions and systems. How very nice of you. EOT from me."

and herewith the second session of 6 boards: cheers, Marcel

Correctly. They did 2 sessions with Suspensor for a bid contest for the Dutch bridge Magazine IMP (Jan/Feb. 2003). For your info I have made today a pdf file of the 1st session. Please do not blame me that at the same time I have added my bidding sequences according REGRESsion too :( Regards, Marcel

Originally the order if equal length by Andrzej Orlow/Slawinski was: lower bid agrees lower suit. But I prefer the order HSCD because the number of steps for a M or m contract has to be most equal. I will illustrate that by a hypothetical 3-3-3-3 distribution, indicated with the 2NT bid 3C = H trump and 7 bids to the Game (3D..NT, 4C..H) 3D = S trump and 7 bids to the Game 3H = C trump and 8 bids to the Game 3S = D trump and 8 bids to the Game With the CDHS order you get 3C = C trump and 10 bids to the Game (3D..NT, 4C..5C) 3D = D trump and 10 bids to the Game 3H = H trump and 5 bids to the Game 3S = S trump and 5 bids to the Game With the SHDC order you get 3C = S trump and 8 bids to the Game (3D..NT, 4C..S) 3D = H trump and 6 bids to the Game 3H = D trump and 9 bids to the Game 3S = C trump and 7 bids to the Game I would like to know who invented the HSCD order. Somebody told me that in one of Ron Klinger's books it is mentioned. I use this HSCD order with Spiral Scan too in case of unknown lengts. Regards, Marcel

Yes indeed Ron. Site is in progress constantly. If you look at the bidding contests you get a good view of the built-in possibilities. I'm busy now with all the interference schemes. As far as possible system-on. Regards, Marcel P.S. dated 09-23-04 url has changed of my site please use this one now: http://members.ams.chello.nl/a.denbroeder4/index.html

Pity that I bought a copy of B2S a couple years ago Found it very useful Unique product idea. I bought a copy too of B2S 1,5 years ago. Working with a Mac and Windows emulation was not ideal. Reason why I did not used this programm. I have an additional PC now for such work only. If somebody has a template (Pass = 13+) to start with , that would be very helpfull. Thanks, Marcel

I'm sorry but I do not see any connection between the fall of The Wall and Slawinski's much earlier dated pamflet regarding restrictions/regulations, specially if you still can read serious Australian or USA-origin articles/e-mails in f.e. rec.games.bridge about this subject. "The only way to fight such is disobedience." And if you would like to play official competition? In the framework of the regulations I search for borderlines. F.e. reading well the HUM/BS regulations, they can not forbid that opposite Precision you can play a HUM-system. (chicken versus egg is no issue!). I have checked it in Holland already. Same regarding Encrypted signals: they can not forbid Encrypted Leads I will leave this issue now; but what about the other articles on Slawinski's site, Claus? Which are much more of interest. Cheers, Marcel

Just for the sake of good order: this convention originally belongs to Marek Glowacki, but that does not alter the spirit of your posting at all ------ To Claus: If you read carefully his writings I should not say : "old outdated statements made by young enthusiastic bridge players" The Advantages etc. 1978 (note = 15 years àfter the start of WOS style): Do not forget that from end 1977 the regulations were there. Imagine his place. Knowing that your bridge view - totally different from the normal ones - is much better in your opinion, but now prohibited. I should be very disappointed or even furious too. In this view I understand the "pamflet way" with many bold one-liners of this article. Codifications of Bids 1978: A fundamental and well documentated article Combine Leads: Needs no reference Cogito Ergo 1995: As far as I know the first one mentioning this problem All real theoretical bridge matters (with a fresh and uncommon view and still up to date), so I really do not understand your opinion Claus. Regards, Marcel

This book is mostly mathematical stuff (very dry... but indeed fundamental). For Slawinski's final conclusion regarding the leads see http://www.new-bridge.net/Combine.htm

Regarding 3S versus 3NT for the index number 3S = step 15 , same as 3NT resulting (including a correction for 2 bids) for REGRESsion in a indexnumber now of 14,3291 ------------- Regarding Bert's Fibonacci index number posting: I have made again a calculation and come to following figures (again 3S or 3NT= 987) •balanced (4333, 4432, 5332, 5422, 6322 and 7222) step index 9,3046 and acc. Fibon : 579,1341 •Singleton/Void regular (4441, 5431, 5521, 5530, 5540, 6421, 6430, 6331, 7321, 7330) step index 4,5055 and acc. Fibon : 207,9762 •extreme 2 suiters (7/8/9-4 and 6+/5+) step index 0,4480 and acc. Fibon : 192,7725 •extreme 1 suiters 8-13 carders step index 0,071 and acc. Fibon : 7,6903 Step index totally 14,3291 Fibon.index 987,5731 with my remark that a 1 point margin is known and very often the quality of the exact distribution. Marcel

For many bids I took an average caused by different relay schemes for 1 distribution (depending on the strength/sequence). Furthermore I have a lot of "waiting-bids", that means f.e. that you tell partner I have a 5332 but I'll wait for your instruction (stopper asking before distribution or show the quality first. etc.) Nevertheless for the figures I took for all the shapes the *complete relay* and knowing then the exact distribution min/max in the range and eventually the quality, resulting for the WOS system REGRESsion (Pass 13+, 1D Fert, all relay style) •balanced (4333, 4432, 5332, 5422, 6322 and 7222) index 8,6692 •Singleton/Void regular (4441, 5431, 5521, 5530, 5540, 6421, 6430, 6331, 7321, 7330) index 4,4242 •extreme 2 suiters (7/8/9-4 and 6+/5+) index 0,4480 •extreme 1 suiters 8-13 carders index 0,071 Totally: 13,6124 Regards, Marcel

Hi Hrotgar, I suppose you have overlooked my above mentioned questions ? Further to this subject. A final distribution bid with 3S or 3NT will not give a different index number? Taking into account the follow-up bids: in case 3NT after 3S is to play. regards, Marcel

Hi All, I do not know if my kind of posting (HUM system) will be in disharmony with the intention of this board for Non-natural system discussion or the general interest of most of it's members. Nevertheless I take the freedom to show you following: Prefering to start at a very low level with those strong 4441's and lower as a Pass will not be possible ;-) Perhaps you will be interested how , without using the 2C bid, a sequence can be, based on a 13+ Pass for the given 4441 ++ hands in this thread. All bid sequences based on "bidding contest bidding". Up to you if you want to take more risk. AQxx AQxx Axxx x KJ KJTxx xxx Axx •=North starts the bidding • Pass 13+ any shape 1C =part 6-11 balanced OR 12+ any • 2H s/v C and a 4441 or 5?440 13-16p. 2NT= relay • 3NT 4-4-4-1 and a max 15-16p. 4C = Slam Askng Bid Hearts (HSCD order) • 5C 3 Aces of 5 + Queen of Hearts 5D = Suit Asking Bid Spades • 5NT K or AQ 7H •Pass ------------------------- K52 KJ9652 Q73 2 AJ97 A KJ65 A653 • 1C 8-12 with any s/v and a 4441 up to 7330 shape 1R = positive relay • 1H s/v H any shape OR s/v C then L=Major or any 5/5 1S = relay • 1NT s/v C variant 2C = relay • 2S L= Hearts and a 1-suiter 6331 up to 7330 2NT= relay • 3C 6331 or 7321 with a minimum 4H = you are a pessimist, because you can do a try without any risk • Pass because with Kx KQxxxxx Qxx x so the perfect hand, but not in this case: • 3C 6331 or 7321 with a minimum 3D = relay • 3H 6-6-3-1 4D End signal • 4H Pass or with Kxx KQxxxx Qxx x this is the next perfect hand, needs a 3/3 break in trump only, but not in this case: • 3H 6-6-3-1 3S = Slam asking Bid Hearts • 3NT 1 of 5 Aces and NO trump Queen 4H • Pass now you have reach your real legal limit ------------ KQ95 AK43 AKT82 - A3 T985 QJ95 KJ3 • P 13+ any shape 1D 0-5p. OR 6-11p. (can be 1 Ace or any K+Q only too!) 4333/4432, 5332 then no 2 Toph., 5M4?22 • 1H 13+ 5c OR 23+ 4432/4333 2H = 4432 10-11 and of good quality • 2S relay 3C = 4c D + 4cMajor • 3S Start control bidding except Diamonds 3NT = A or K of spades • 4C further relay for distribution 4D = 4c H • 4H relay 4S = 2-4-4-3 • 4NT Slam asking bid Hearts 5C = 1 of 5 Aces no QH • 5D Suit asking bid Diamonds 5S = Queen or AK (if no Q then 5H= non or KQ) •6H Pass ------------ KJ97 AK32 - AQJ73 86 75 QT5 K96542 • P 13+ any shape 1C= 6-11 part balanced OR 12+ any (Ace or any K+Q = 6-11!) • 1D relay (too strong for a s/void opening = 13-16p) 1S= Clubs if 5332 then 2 Toph. , if 6322 no toph. info, or 5C4?22 • 1NT relay 2C = minimum 6-9, if 6322 then no 2 toph. • 2D relay 2H = a real min minimum • 2S relay 3C = the 6322 shape • 3D relay 3H = 2-2-3-6 • 3S Slam asking Bid, Clubs = trump 4C = 1 Ace of 5 (Queen is not possible regarding the 2C Bid) • 4D Suit asking bid H (Queen of S is enough or QH with no Spade lead) 4H = non or KQ • 4S Suit asking bid Spades 4NT= non or KQ • 5C I've done my best PASS lucky for no QH, because the contract is then in the wrong hand unfortunately --------------------- T874 T932 KT72 3 KQJ3 AQJ8 - AKQ74 • 1D 0-7p. any shape (not an extreme with 6-7p.) no any A + K=8-12p.! 1H = 13+ any 5c? or 23+ with a 4333/4432 • 1S 0-5 p. 1NT = ++ • 3H 4-4-4-1 0-5 p. 4H = Slam Asking Bid Hearts, but 1st.step = Pass * • Pass if the King bid 6 Spades the best contract with a diamond lead *If you want to play game only bid 4D= End Signal, if you want to inform for King/Queen of hearts, then bid 4H,with NON, partner will pass. If you don't want that , bid 4C firstly = a relay, than afterwards asking for Heart value is forcing ---------------------- AKJ2 KT92 6 AKQJ 63 A A9743 98643 • Pas 13+ any shape 1H= s/v H any shape OR s/v C L=Major both 6-11 points (can be 1 Ace only or any K+Q!) • 1S relay 2NT = s/v H and 5/5 D+C • 3C relay 3D = 2-1-5-5 and a minimum • 3H Slam asking Bid C (if equal length then HSCD order, same if no known distribution) 4D = 2 Aces of 5 no Queen C • 6C there is a minimum so no QS possible for 7C Pass ---------------------- KJ43 95 T54 AQ97 AT85 AK83 KJ93 4 • 1H 8-12 4333/4432, 5?332 no 2 toph., 5M4?22 1S = relay • 1NT 8-10 5m332, or 4432 /4333 2K= 2nd positive relay • 2H good 9 or 10 4432 (the 4333 =2S bid, if R = 4333 too, you can end in 2NT!) 2S= relay • 2NT 4cC + 4c? 3C = relay • 3S 4-2-3-4 4D= End Signal • 4H obligatory 4S = to play • Pass Partner must have KQ Spades, NO Club values, ànd AQ of Diamonds, makes a 11 pointer any slem investigation is useless therefore, see f.e. 4C = slam asking bid Spades • 4S 2 Aces of 5, no Queen of spades PASS or you can bid • 2H=good 9 or 10 4432 3C= C+H+S stopper asking • 3S = Club + Spade stopper no Heart stopper if a 4c Diamonds you have a problem by bidding 4C= distribution relay, so Pass will be the best alternative? Because of the extended handling of the 1H Opening with fine diviations of the pointranges ànd quality you do not miss something frequently. My Credo is that the balanced hand should be the relayer ®, but there must be a balance too between the two hands regarding the pointranges. After an 8-12 balanced opening and R has a s/v he can not bid it in a relay sequence. (apart from natural bidding) And after Pass (13+) and 1D (could be a part of the balanced 6-11p.) either. I can't have it all, no system is perfect, but I'm happy and can live with it. I hope I did not have bored you with these sequences and my best regards, Marcel www. : REGRESsion (WOS based on Regres but extensively modified) http://members.ams.chello.nl/a.denbroeder4/index.html -------------------

Hi all, Hi all, I'm new to this group and interested in relay systems (specially WOS), reason for following comment on hrotgar's nice posting: When I divide the 560 possible distributions roughly in f.e.: •balanced (4333, 4432, 5332, 5422, 6322 and 7222) 64,36% with 56 possible distributions •Singleton/Void regular (4441, 5431, 5521, 5530, 5540, 6421, 6430, 6331, 7321, 7330) 32,86% with160 poss. distributions •extreme 2 suiters (7/8/9-4 and 6+/5+) 2,32% with 156 poss. distributions •extreme 1 suiters 8/9 including 8-5 0,45% with 108 poss. distributions •very extreme 1 suiters 10/11/12/13 carders 0,0015%, with 80 poss. distributions I think you can not say that the balanced one has to end in the lowest level in a relay sequence to be able too reach a very good index number, because the next one with 32,86% but with 160 poss. distributions needs more bidding space taking into account that you want to end below 4C and to be able to give f.e. an 1-point margin within f.e. an 4p.range. So I suppose if you should compare relay systems by index number only, you will get a indication about the efficiency to *start with* only. More facts are involved for measuring efficiency as f.e. during the relay sequence (sub or even subsub)-pointranges can be stipulated before ending in the final distribution or pre-info's regarding suit quality; quality of the shape in general; number of control points; mentioning the shortness suit in an very early stage to be able to evaluate the R hand; the relayer normally never has a unbalanced hand opposite a balanced one etc. Apart of the fact if you can break the relay positively, ask for stopper/control and pick up the relay again and ask for the (final) distribution in case that's the next important matter. Or more or less preemptive like bid which could start on a lower level too for reaching a better index. BUT, nevertheless, this index can be a very helpfull and nice instrument for a first comparison of relay systems. -------- Dear Hrotgar, Before I will index my own system a practical question: When the distribution sequence ends with 3D f.e. for a 5431 min in the range 3H same but now max (or even max/max-> zoom! if you like), what will be the index number? the average of all possibilities or the most common bid? In your example you mention in Symmetric Relay indeed 3D for the 5431, but how do you count the given number of 17 steps? (12?) Thanks for your answer. Best regards, Marcel