MarceldB

"wiecej" means any more

And if finding Jack♦ will you be happy with a ♦ lead in 7NT? I prefer knowing Jack♠ Maybe it could not be appreciated perhaps to give underneath my bidding sequence in a HUM. But apart of the other aspects of a WOS, such hands are really a piece of cake ;-) frankly spoken so if you will still permit me: Pass= 13+ any shape -2♣= 6-11p. s/void ♦, longest suit=♣ OR a 4441, 5?441 (points can be 1 Ace only or a King + any Queen too!) 2♦= relay -2S= 1-suiter♣ 6331, 7321 or 7330 2NT= relay -3♣= 6-9p. 6331 or 7321 3♦=relay -3♥= 3-3-1-6 3♠= SLam Asking Bid, ♣ is trump (for the present) -4♦= 1 Ace of 5 + Q♣ 4♥= Suit asking Bid ♥ -4♠= non but or KQ♥ not possible re the 6-9p. 4NT= SAB♠ -5♣= non but or KQ♠ not possible re the 6-9p. 5♦= SAB ♦ -5♥= no A/K/Q♦ 5♠= scan Jacks, start with ♣ -6♦= Jack♣+Jack♥, no Jack♠ 7 ♣ -Pass note: Jack procedure in this SLAB method is that after all SAB's the next bids -if not a six-bid - is Jack scanning (in- or excluding the trump suit) Or after a Slab or SAB the first free bid. Is here after 4♦ the 5♥ bid,so meaning the same: scan Jacks start with ♣. Above sequence just to show you the SAB mechanism. I prefer here the direct 5♥ bid because f.e. in case of no J♣ you gain a needed one more step for investigating furtheron. Or even more steps in case the Q♥ is there. (Spiral scan method can be used as well in this system by the way, in two stages of the sequence and ending with the 6♦ bid too for the same information)

S/NS, MP (NS are silent) W------------E x-------------AKJxxx xxxxxxx----AKQ xx-----------AQJx xxx----------non I will not bore you with the complete sequence but the Relayer knows with the bid of 6 Diamonds: no Jack of hearts. And furtheron: the exact distribution, no any King or Ace, stiff Queen of spades could be possible What are now the considerations for the grand? - compared with the pairs who don't have all this information, will they reach 6Hearts or even 7? In natural style: what will be the bidding? Pass - 2C - 2D - 3S - 4H? and then? Or how in a strong Club system? - if Hearts are 3-0 divided a club lead is a disaster (by the way East will be the declarer). If no club lead you need spades 3-3 or the diamond finesse Happily last night I heard the Jack of Hearts so I had not this problem. But I always like to analyse a bidding in case you hear the hand not hoped fore. Any suggestion?

The big problem is that with 'lowering the limits' regarding the pointrange by opening 1♥ you need very good tools and a more than normal scheme to be able to handle such hands. With Qx, AKT9xx,xxx, Kx you will bid 4♥ too after the 4♣ bid that's what I mean. Same as with your remark regarding the doubleton ♦ WOS with build-in "lowering the limits" will solve those problems. Specially if your descriptions of those limited openings are very well designed. f.e. 2♣= 8-12 ♥ 5332 with 2/3 toph. OR 6322 toph.= unknown -----2♦= relay 2NT= 6322 8-10p. 2toph. -----3♣= distri relay (not with the purpose to investigate slem on forehand but to investigate -----if 3NT or 4♥ will be better + at the same time if hearing 2-6-2-3 you will proceed 3♥= 2-6-3-2 -----3NT Pass Even with AKxxxx♥ only (is an 8-12 pointer too normally in Polish WOS) you will reach the fine 3NT contract

I have made a biddingstep calculator based on Fibonacci, see my download page under "Various" Marcel

Thank you very much for your extended reply. I have some questions left: I have altered Q♣ in Q♥ AKxx-------- xx AJxx--------- Qx KQ----------- Jxxxxxx AKx---------- xx 4NT and an answer: 5♥ = J in the longest suit + Q♥ I suppose you meant this sequence in the framework of your quote >This one can freeze the blood of any Bidding Developer, ? --------------- Axx--------- xx Axx--------- xxx AKQx------- Jx xxx--------- AKQxxx J♦ investigated? Sorry, I did not realize that East would be the relayer. So same question and J♦ placed now in East. West has the same bid of 3♦, East now 3♥ and finally 6NT as contract ? ----------------- West's hand slightly altered: Axx--------- xxx Axxx-------- xx AKJ--------- Qxxxxx Axx---------- xxx PL maintains 3 But Q♦ is now an important issue. ---------------- Regarding stopper(s) asking/showing matter & control asking/showing matter: included in your system too? There are enough circumstances to have stopper info in case an exact distribution is not (so) important. Or even in a slam region to know on forehand on a low(er) level where the points are located and if they will work. Or a control asking/showing and the possibility if that control is the right one to continue the distribution sequence. Instead of hearing after the distribution relay and the (expected) CPA that the control is in the wrong suit and the contract could be to high already. (xxx opposite xxx whilst f.e. 4S must be the contract although you have all the honours/tricks in the other 3 suits) -12-02-04 added: example: West or East dealer xxx-----------Qxx AQxxx--------KJxxx KQJx----------Ax A--------------KQJ 4♥ is the limit I can imagine that the stiff Ace♣ -seeing what that's worth in your pointcount system- could influence badly the final contract in case you don't know on forehand the lack of an important control. whilst with a Queen less in East: (west or east dealer: purpose is that west=relayer xxx-----------Axx AQxxx--------KJxxx KQJx----------xx A--------------KQJ you will feel comfortable to do a slam investigation ---------------------- and finally in the framework of bidding the correct slam ànd in the correct hand: W/non or East : purpose is that East will be the relayer KJxx---------98xx AJxxx------- KQ x-------------AKQ AJx-----------KQxx W/non or East : purpose is now that West will be the relayer KJxx---------98xx AQxxx------- KJ x--------------AKQ AQx-----------KJxx as you will understand a matter of "Jack juggle". West or East relayer apart of the fact that in my opinion the balanced hand should be normally the relayer. Thanks for your reply, regards, Marcel

> 7. You will NEVER miss a Slam but also the correct one? W/- 3 ------------ AKQJ96 AK98753---- Q6 - ------------ T972 AJ743------- Q 7♠? Axx--------- xx Axx--------- xxx AKQx------- xx xxx--------- AKQxxx J♦ investigated? If yes 5NT still playable? Axx--------- xxx Axxx-------- xx AKJx-------- Qxxxxx Ax----------- xxx Do you know the 6th♦ for 3NT? If yes the Q♦ too? AKxx-------- xx AJxx--------- xx KQ----------- Jxxxxxx AKx---------- Qx Q♠ + Q♣ investigated, if yes J♦ too? To all above questions I can assent with my system BUT claiming "NEVER miss a slem" is an other matter. So I'm curious to be informed about your sequences for above examples. Thanks.

Your comment is clear. But lifting this question in the framework of a relay-sequence (65, 74 shape) it is really important when the relayer has looser(s) in the short suit(s). 1-1 diviation will not harm, but the wrong doubleton does. Reason why in case of a final distribution relay I use: step 1 = void in lowest side suit step 2 = void in highest side suit step 3 = with an 1-1 diviation (and event. zoom in case of lack of bidding space)

I suppose Misho aims at "Maxim" dated 1976/78 Pass = 0-4 or 12-15 1♣= preparatory 5-11p. OR 16-18p. 1♦= 5-11 p. any 5card Major OR 19+ p. 1♥= 5-11p. 4cMajor + 5cminor ♥/♣ or ♠/♦ 1♠= 5-11p. 4cMajor + 5cminor ♠/♣ or ♥/♦ 1NT= 5-11p. 4c/5c vv minors or Majors Those 1♥-1NT two-suiter bids are out of the "Lambda" system, where two-suiter means: 54, 55, 64 shape You can alter the pointranges of course for a HUM- free version.

Hi all, I think, specially in a thread like "best auction?", "how to bid a difficult hand?" - and very often asked in a slem region -, there is an ideal hand. To avoid in f.e. using more sophisticated slemtools, which will indeed work for thàt hand, to see the positive side of that auction only, to mention shortly in a postscript that you can handle it with a disappointing answer too (or not) or if you can stay indeed on a safe level by investigating furtheron without taking too much risk. In this way for comparison reasons you will get a more honest view. Just a suggestion..... Regards, Marcel

Is it really so easy? I suppose you will have the same auction giving North Qxxx Qxxx Axxx x or KJxx KJxx xxxx x or Qxxx KJxx Qxxx x and there is a long way from 3NT to 6NT.......

If you allow me to bid it through a HUM. •Pass= 13+ any shape 2♥= 6-11 singl./void♣ 4441 or 5?440 •2NT= relay 3♣= 4441 4/6-9 or 5♠440 4/6-11 (if 4p=A, 5p=K+anyQ) •3♥= Control Points? 3NT = 1 CP (thus a King) •4♣ scan (HSDC order) 4♥= K♥, no Q♥ •4♠= scan 5♦= Q♠, Q♦, no Q♣ now comes the tricky part if no J♠ you will not like a ♠ lead •5♥= scan Jacks 5♠= no J♥ •5NT=scan 6♦= J♠, no J♦ •6NT and in the correct hand Pass If J♥ and no J♠ = the 5NT answer, you can pass eventually

3♥ shows a 4-4-1-4 if I remember correctly, so it should be 3♠... Miscounteed. Free is correct. Up things by a step... Just for the sake of good order. Up things by 2 steps I suppose ?

knowing with a 3♣ bid by east in REGRESsion a 4-4-4-1C with 4/6-9 points ( if 4p. then 1 Ace only, if 5p. then K+ any Q) or a 5S-4-4-0C with 4/6-11 points (same) 3♥* - 3NT= 1CP (A=2,K=1) 4♣ - 4♥= K♥ no Q♥ 4♠ - 5♦= Q♠+Q♦, no Q♣ 6♣ - P *Control Point asking -scanorder HSDC

So it could be K♠ too, and with a ♥ lead? Or even a ♠ lead and Axx♦? I prefer to scan A or K firstly.

According bidding system REGRESsion: Problem 1 1♥* - 2♥** 3♣*** - 3♥ *8-12p. 4333/4432 or any 5332 with no 2toph./3 or 5M4?22 **8-12p. 5+c♥ n.f. ***helpsuit trial Problem 2 2♣* - 3♦** Pass *8-12p. 5♥332 with 2 toph./3 OR 6♥322 toph.=? ** 7-12 6crd♦ (if 9-12 a 5c possible and a singleton/void♥) Q♣ nothing worth opposite a known double/tripleton ànd a misfit, so downgrade your 14-pointer Rgds. Marcel

There is a similarity with the system "Sandgroper" by Ian Casselton (Aus) Pass= 0-6 any shape, 7-12 4432/4333/4441 17+ bal. or 4441 1C same 1NT same 1x and 2C= 7-12 or 17+ all 1 step transfer 2D=7-12 54+ D and an other 2H= 7-12 55+ no spades 2S= 7-12 55+ with spades 2NT=weak prempt.C, sound preempt. D Marcel

Info for the Dutch and Flamish speaking readers: I have used this board of hrotgar to write an article (11 pages including some side information) how to bid this hand in a HUM system (WOS). If interested see this pdf Best regards Marcel

Dear Whereagles, You have started your first comment with: "I've toyed with the idea of forcing pass systems once" You are receiving serious and helpfull comments from the side of f.e. The Hoq, Hrotgar and myself (all well-known with the in and outs of a WOS) and now writing in your last post: "Anyway, I rest my case. I merely wanted to point out a problem with 8-12 openings. I wasn't asking people to agree with me. That being said, I'm not available anymore to discuss irrelevancies. " is not the correct way imho to treat this discussion - started by you by the way - and in particular when it's becoming "hot" for you and is more or less a brevet of inability to be frankly. In the framework of your statements it is not astonishing that you have reveived such kinds of comments. But this takes not away that I will try again to explain in short the merits of a WOS (with Pass=13+), because there your confusion/misunderstanding starts already. All has be written down extensively by Slawinski in the past (1967 and later) and underneath the "highlights": PARADOXES: •12-18 Opening Zone: - 12 points strenght to believed to be enough to have a chance to make the contract - security from disastrous defeat Comment: Why make an overcall with f.e. AJ973, Q, 764, QJ82 ? which is far more dangerous because opponents exchanged information already •Opening Pass (0-11): - large range of strenght and shape - high frequency, low agressiveness •Signalling the distribution: - info about opening suit, no info side suits - no difficulty for opponent NEW AXIOMS: •Leadership principle - the leader should be the player who first received info about partner's - the leader should be the stronger hand (with common exceptions , s/void etc.) •Maximal activity principle - find your own (best) contract - obstruct opponent's bidding - avoid info exchange by opponent •Maximal frequency principle - most frequent hands to be treated with utmost care by your system - majority of opening bids reserved for the 8-12 zone • WITH ABOVE KNOWLEDGE IN MIND • : •Distributional uniformity principle In case partnership's strenght is small or there is an interference - info about all the suits as much as possible - leadership principle ways? - short suit openings - or major-oriented - ambigous openings - guessing principle - unbalanced preparation principle (in case of interference you know more (guess) about opener's hand) - opening bid gives as little info as possible to the opponent - alternative lenght priciple (f.e. short or long in a specified suit) I stop now because I would not like to voilate copyrights eventually (although I have written permission from Mr. Slawinski to publish in my website the basics/schemes of Regres). ---------- Dear Whereagles To proceed now f.e. in the 8-12 zone with an 1 Heart opening: a simple "sayc"-like/natural way of thought that: suit= Hearts and no further side info, combined with the few openingbids you have suggested will not bring your partner (= Leader, I prefer to proceed furtheron with R= Relayer, and RR= responder to relays) any progress. Some examples of the past (if out of date now is not so important for this moment) for the 1H opening 1st/2nd seat , 8-12 points: - 4+ card Hearts and unbalanced - shortness (singl. or void) spades - 3-4c H, 0-2c S, 3-4cC, 5-6c D - shortness in a minor - 3-4c H, 0-2c S - 2-suiters (54, 55 or 64) H/C or S/D - 4-5 c H and no shortness - 3-4c H and no shortness at most 4c S (H equals/longer as S) - 0-2c H OR 6c H - 3-5c H, 0-2c S OR 3-4c H, 5c S In this way R will be much more able to proceed, or in case RR proceeds eventually R will have a good view. Trusting to have you informed herewith and moreover hoping to have convinced you that further bidding is based totally on these "standard" basics/style of WOS. If not, I can not alter it, but anyway then you will know what you are missing. Best regards, Marcel

>I've toyed with the idea of forcing pass systems once. I was thinking of something like >this >pass: 13+ >1-level: 8-12 >1C: 0-7 A Strong clubber will be very thankfull for your Fert, not disturbing his own system at all. >Now.. this has two major problems: >1. The pass as 13+ starts too low. This is like bringing a strong club opener to 13+. But with a great difference. Opposite a 16+ as opponent you normally don't have game prospects. Reason for all those different kind of defences. Opposite 13+ , game prospects are not excluded at all for the opponent. So your defence tools should be completely different. >It doesn't work very well... it comes up too often, doesn't show shape, too >wide-ranging, and therefore it can get you into trouble if opps compete. And they will do >it, because now they stand to have a bit more points. Opposite 16+ they bid more often with less points too. All depends on the level of the interference & your handling. 1C-1H no problem you can play system-on, 1S you loose the 1C bid (not the 12+ part of it!) 1D and 1H, rest system-on as a possibility or not. 2 or > level interference could cause more problems. (play Ruben-/Lebensohl and take out double). Pass - (1S) - bid - (2S) , still you have info from partner. I admitt high(er) level interference are difficult, but in natural bidding not? Okay you do not know openers suit, all has it's price. I take it into the bargain. Regarding the wide range: Don't forget that the Pass-opener is the Relayer (can change afterwards with an s/void shape eventually or Partner is stronger). Natural 11-19 or a ++ (including 2NT-like slemkillers) are much more difficult to handle even in uncontested bidding as a 13+. In case of interference he will tell you undoubtly too that he has a minimum, medium or max if you can not play system-on and in coop. with your own bid. Finally WOS systems are relay systems (with a lot of natural bids or n.f. relays for the 8-12 openings or 6-10/11 after Pass too) But the main issue still remains: 0-7 frequency 28,58% (less something for A+ any K) 8-12 frequency 44,62% (+ " ) 13+ frequency 26,80% compared with your proposal 0-9 frequency 56,23% / 23,37% = 1suiter 5-10p.) 11-15 frequency 34,00% 16+ frequency 9,77% I will continue furtheron. >2. The 1-level openings, albeit frequent, truncate too early. An 8-12 hand cannot afford >to make jump rebids due to lack of playing strenght. I'm talking about auctions like this: >1H 1S >3m >In sayc this is a hand around 18-20 points with 54 and 4-5 losers. >In precision you'd have around 14-15 points with 55 and 5 losers. >In an 8-12 opening you'd need something like a 65 to have 5 losers. Sorry?? Main characteristic of the 8-12 issue is that - occurs most so use good skils here, - many times points are ca. 20/20 divided, so reach as quick as possible a satisf. contract (if not the optional one, no problem, you gave the opponent no chance to investigate their one) - therefore partner gives a describing bid too (up to 13 points -no problem- a relay is not necessary always!) Therefore your opening bid has to carry already a good definition primary and I mean not the suit only. Reason why you shall smart for the fact that your range 11-15 contains 4 openingbids only for all the shapes. >Now... an 8-12 point 65 with 5 losers doesn't come very often. As a result, the above >auction will seldom happen at strong pass. Not an optimal usage of the available bidding >space. Even if 1S here is some sort of GF shape-ask relay, the rebid 3m is only an option >opposite this relay, not opposite other bids. Then I should take an other system designer ;-) Don't mix-up sayc matters in a WOS >But >So I concluded I'd have to play it like this >pass = 16+ >1-level = 11-15 >2-level = 5-10 1-suiters (5-6 cards) >1C = 0-9 >But to play it like this, I might as well swap pass and 1C and play a normal strong club >system!!! again 4 bids left for the 11-15. Apart of the fact if you can handle the 5-10p. 1-suiters correctly. --------- The 13+ Pass is compelled by necessity. This range should be treated as well as the main range. Otherwise you will create a paradox. Taking away 1 or 2 bids of the main range is no alternative. Apart of the fact if symmetry is wanted in the openings after Pass. Regards, Marcel

Thanks for all your contributions, although - as I presumed but not hoped - non with a complete satisfied solution. This is indeed a very difficult hand. Even 6D could be a problem to bid as you have admitted. Well let's see then in a HUM: W---------- E xxxxx----- - Axxx------ xxx - ---------- AKQJxxxx AKQx----- Jx In case WEST opens the auction: •Pass =13+ »1S= singleton/void spades 6-11p. 4441 up to 7330 5/6-10p. 8+card and an 1-suiter •1NT=Relay »3C= 5/5 H/C or 8-card Diamonds and 3/2 or 3/1 in H/C v.v. in 9-card •3D=relay »4D= 32 or 23 in H/C and an 8-card Diamonds and 9-10 p. •4S= Slam asking Bid diamonds »5NT = 2 Aces/5 + Trump Queen + Trump Jack, no Jack of Hearts •6C= Jack of clubs? »6H = Yes (if no you can Pass 6D just in time!) •Bingo: 7 Diamonds »Pass ------------------------------------------------------------------ In case East opens the bidding: - »1C= 8-12 any singleton/void and a 4441 up to 7330 OR 7-11 any singleton/void and a 8+ 1-suiter •1D=relay »1S= same etc., so symmetric completely One difference because of the pointrange (11p = maximum, so a side Queen can be involved) •4S= Slam asking Bid diamonds »5S= 2 Aces/5 + Trump Queen no side Queen H or C (so partner must have Jack of diamonds for the max 10-11points) •6C= Jack of Clubs? »6H= yes •7 Diamonds »Pass -------------- In case West does not give a relay (if you play originally: when a Major then relay=15/16+) - »1C=8-12 any singleton/void and a 4441 up to 7330 OR 7-11 any singleton/void and a 8+ 1-suiter •1S = natural or semi-natural (=3card), 0-14 points and forcing »3H= any solid 7 carder with AKQ any (semi)-solid 8+-carder with AK or better all options with NO side value (K or Q) •3S = Pass or correct (can be strong [12-14p.] too if you know partner does not pass! You take a slightly risk, but you gain more bidding space) »3NT= any void •4D= forcing relay, asking for the void (4C= Pass or correct) »4S= spade void •4NT= which solid one? »5S= 8 carder AKQJ (not necessary to give further side-Jack info, because there is just bidding space enough for partner to ask) •6C= JC? »6H=Yes •7 Diamonds »Pass I admitt highly artificial and I do not understand why my partners are running away ;-) Regards, Marcel For your info and for the sake of good order: no gadgets, all part of a nearly elaborated HUM-system. Not posted to boast with these sequences but to see if there are other/better possibilities or instruments which are worthwhile to practice, specially in a non-HUM.

Hi (artificial) bidders, xxxxx--------- non Axxx-----------xxx non------------AKQJxxxx AKQx----------Jx West as well as East opens the bidding. Do you reach the grand in both options in a proper way? I would like to know -and please no affected/unreal sequences just for this hand - how you should bid these in your "standard"-system. I do not have a problem with this hand but the reason of this posting is that I want to learn from other/unknown to me solutions/methods. Thanks, Marcel

I think a RELAY in all it's appearances such as - after a multi (strong) opening - transfers - forcing-, artificial- (inviting) relays - complete (symmetric) relay systems - to create a possibility who will be the declarer etc. Even in the most simple systems without any further conventions you use a relay: - Stayman relay - Blackwood etc.

see an article by Fred Gitelman : http://www.imp-bridge.nl/articles/2over1b.htm

Do you mean? Lilla Lojliga Saffle Spader (or Little Saffle Spade) - with following features: - pass = 8+, at least four spades, unlimited and forcing - 1C = 8+, at least four hearts, 0-3 spades, unlimited and forcing - 1D = 0-7 any - 1H = 8+, forcing, no four card majors - 1S/1NT = NT-openings without four card majors - conventional two level openings