Kungsgeten

When I started learning relays the mantra was "length bottom up, shortness top down". So when showing a suit, the first step is clubs etc and when showing shortness the first step is spades etc. From a memory standpoint this is nice, because the rules mesh well together. Let's say opener has shown 5+H and 4D, and now we're in the short-legged two-suiter scheme: Step 1: High shortness (short spades) Step 2: Equal shortness (5422, or maybe 7411) Step 3+: Low shortness (short clubs) But instead of thinking "shortness top down" you could just as well think "length bottom up": Step 1: Low length (clubs longer than spades) Step 2: Equal length Step 3+: High length (spades longer than clubs) The rule becomes more useful when showing single-suiters, since it can be a bit hard to remember what to bid with various 6322 hands (length bottom up, so the first step is bid with three cards in the lowest ranking suit etc).

Here's another structure I toyed with a while back: http://snortingmaradonas.se/erik/mysystem/relay2c_transfer.html The idea is to use 2D as "hearts or relay", so this is similar to OP's current structure where 2D is a transfer to hearts. In this structure (43)15 and 5422 shapes are excluded from the 2C opening. The (43)15 hands can be opened with a Precision 2D (or in our case we include these shapes into our Swedish club) and the (42)25 hands can be treated as balanced.

I think the main problem is that you often want some non-GF hands in the 2D relay, but if 2D is game forcing, here's my take: 2C-2D; 2H = 6+C, single-suited. 2S = 5+C and 4H, short-legged two-suiter. 2NT = 6+C and 4D, or 4-4-0-5 (if that shape is included into your 2C opening). 3C+ = 5+C and 4S, short-legged two-suiter. 2C-2D; 2NT-3C; 3D = 6+C, 4D, short spades. 3H = 4-4-0-5 <-- The "equal shortness" step is replaced with the 4-4-0-5 hand. 3S = 2-1-4-6 3NT = 3-0-4-6 4C = 2-0-4-7 4D = 1-1-4-7 <-- The 7411 shape is always a bit problematic. I think this should put you at "+1" compared to original symmetric. Also you don't have 5332s in the single-suited hands, so it might easier/better to use something other than symmetric. Maybe: 2C-2D; 2H-2S; 2NT = 7+C, no void. 3C = Any 6322. 3D = 1-3-3-6 3H = 3-1-3-6 3S = 3-3-1-6 3NT = 7+C, void spades. 4C = 7+C, void hearts. 4D = 7+C, void diamonds.

Putting balanced hands into nullve's 1D opening seems a bit problematic, since 1D-1M; 1NT will probably be needed for balanced hands. In that case I think that the 1H response should be some kind of waiting bid: 1D-- 1H = 5+H or waiting. 1S = 5+S. Higher = Not sure. One alternative is that 1H is "waiting" and the 1NT response shows 5+H. 1D-1H; 1S = Minors. 1NT = Balanced. 2C = Single-suited. 2D = 5S and 3H?? 2M = Canapé. Possible solutions if you want to play strong NT: - Play Swedish Club: use 1C as 11-13 NT or 17+ any) - Play Swedish Club but denies a major if weak NT: 1C is 11-13 NT no major, or 17+. 1M can be balanced (and 4+ suit) if 11-13. - Play nullve's suggestion that 1D could be opened on 3-3-4-3 (so could be 3 clubs). Use the 2D opening as "Bailey two bid" showing 11-13 hcp 5-6 diamonds and 2-3 cards in each major.

Nice idea! Though I think that 1D-1X; 2C should show 6+C, so the 1NT rebid should probably be minors 5/4 either way.

Yes, but any 4441 is okay.

If you don't want "unresolved canapé sequences", and no nebulous diamond bid, I think you need some kind of constructive two-suiters at the two-level (like Roman 2M). I've toyed with the following idea, and find it a bit strange that I haven't seen anyone play like this (might be major flaws that I don't see): 1C = Strong 1D = 4+D. 4441, or 4D 5+M, or 5D 4+C, or 6+D. 1M = 4M and longer side suit, or 6+M. Could include balanced shapes too I guess. 1NT = Weak. 2C = 6+C or 5C and 4D. 2D = Multi. 2M = 5+M and 4+C. My intention was to use this with a Swedish Club, so 1C would be 11-13 NT or 17+ any, while 1NT would be 14-16 NT. There's also the Moscito/Magic Diamond style MAFIA systems where the major openings are a bit nebulous: could be any two-suiter (canapé or not) as well as single-suited (5332 counts as single-suited here). I've also seen variants including 4432 and 4333 shapes. Magic Diamond uses transfer responses to the major suit openings, so no negative 1NT. Here's my old system notes with a strong club and transfer style Magic Diamond openings (very similar to MOSCITO): http://snortingmaradonas.se/erik/relayclub.pdf A friend of mine uses a nebulous diamond that denies holding a four card major: 1C = 15+ any 1D = 10-14, unbalanced and no major. 0+ diamonds (could be 3-3-0-7 for instance). 1M = "Magic Diamond": 10-14, 4+M but not 4333/4432. Longer minor possible. 1NT = 11-14, no five card major. 2X = Weak. Here's a "Lite Version" of Magic Diamond: http://www.brenning.se/pp/MagicDlight.pdf

"Boring club, exciting pass" Pass = 0-7 or 17+. 1C = 8-17 NT. Could be 4441 with singleton minor if 13-16. 1D = 13-16 5+M or 4441 with singleton major. 1M = 8-12 4+M magic diamond style. 1NT = 12-16 unbal no major. 2m = 8-11 5+m, no major. 2M = 12-16 4M and 5+m.

I had an idea of "transfer club" with strong diamond. The idea was to use a "normal" short club opening along with limited major suit openings. I think it was something like this: 1♣ = 4+♣ unbalanced 11-21, or 12-14 NT, or 18-20 NT 1♦ = 15-17 NT or 21+ NT or 16+ unbal (but GF if clubs being the primary suit). 1♥♠ = 5+ major, 10-15 1NT = Diamonds and hearts, 10-15. 2♣ = Diamonds and spades, 10-15. 2♦ = Diamonds, no major, 10-15. Having three openings for unbalanced hands with diamonds in the 10-15 range seems a bit overkill :) Playing 1NT as "diamonds and a major" is probably wiser.

I don't understand how the "multi 2♣" (or whatever it should be called) hurts the preemptive bidding compared to not being able to show diamonds at the two level at all. However I'm not trying to convince you, simply sharing some alternate views. The style with 6+♣ or 5♣ and 4M is what I meant when referring to the Polish style. It would be interesting to see statistics on IMP differences where one table opened 1m compared to the other table opening 2m. Some more systems I forgot to mention which could be interesting to look at: - Silent Club. By rbforster on this forum. I don't know if there's notes published, but the idea is that you pass with the Precision 2♣ opening (and the three-suited 2♦ opening). Third hand opens lighter than usual to compensate is my guess. The more well defined and less frequent your 2♣ opening is, the easier it should be to pass with it. - Transfer Responses to One Club with Relays (book by Lyle Poe 2019). He includes all GF bids in 1♣ (along with weak NT, 18-19 NT, 15+ clubs and some weaker hands with clubs). Opening 2♣ is natural 8-14 (so more frequent and also more preemptive than your examples). With 8-10 you have 6+♣ (like a sound weak two). With 11-14 there are some 5431 hands with 5♣ and 4M included, if the club suit is good. Also all 4-4-0-5 and 0-4-4-5 hands are opened 2♣ instead of 1♣. He claims that 2♣ shows 6+♣ 90% of the time, and responder should assume opener has six. To me 8-14 seems like a huge range, but I haven't tried it :) Overall this system seems quite similar to what you describe (but with transfer responses instead of a negative 1♦).

I haven't read all of the posts in the thread and OP's further tinkering, but some comments that may be helpful: Playing 2♣ as "traditional strong or weak with diamonds" doesn't mean you have to play multi. It isn't great as a preempt (since responder might hesitate to raise, and as you say the opponents get two shots) but it does take away the one level. One thing it does is protect the strong 2♣ opening from destructive overcalls. Other uses for 2♦ (instead of multi and if you don't want to play 2♦ as something contructive) could be a "mini NT" with 5-6♦ (Bailey two bids), weak with both majors (Ekrens), 5-5 major and another (Wilkosz if allowed), diamonds and hearts, or even diamonds and a major. Systems you may want to look into (similar to the ones you describe): - An Unassuming Club. This system have a weak 1NT. 2♣ is 6+. 1♣ is natural (if 11-15 then a four card major too) or 15+ NT or any 20+. - "Polish Club 2020: Expert" (I've also heard it described as Baltic Club). This is a book written by Jassem, and I think it is the system he currently plays. It is basically Polish Club but the Polish 2♣ opening has been put into 1♣. They instead use 2♣ as Ekrens (weak both majors). Seems like the 1♣ is really overloaded, but it might give you some ideas. - Nightmare. Seems like Polish Club but with weak NT and normal 1M openings. Their 1C is always strong (15+ NAT, 15-17 NT or any GF). They put 18-20 NT into the otherwise natural 1♦ opening. You also had a question regarding advantages of Polish Club vs Dutch Doubleton. I'm not saying Polish Club is better, but here's some things I'd consider advantages: 1. Removing the weak unbalanced hands from 1♣ makes it a bit more safe to compete as responder when the opponents enter the bidding. You assume opener have 12-14 NT (which you typically do in DD too, but then you're sometimes having problems when opener had the natural 11 count and you're in a misfit). I myself consider the treatment of the weak NT hands as the strongest part of weak/strong club systems compared to other systems with strong NT. Awm argued that opener can't reopen with the weak NT, and that may be true (unless you agree otherwise) but I'm sceptical regarding this in DD (or other "natural" systems) too: shouldn't a reopening double (when responder haven't bid) show something more than a flat minimum with a doubleton in their suit? Does opener have to bid something else with an unbalanced hand, or the 18+ NT (if that is included in the same opening bid)? 2. Opening 1♦/1M is more limited compared to DD. I agree with you that these openings are fine in DD, but when you actually open say 1M you can take advantage of opener having a maximum of 17. 3. The 2♣ opening in Polish is a double edged sword and I know this style get a lot of criticism (especially in American system litterature). In competitive auctions though it is pretty nice having showed your suit from the start, and also you force the opponents to enter at the two-level.

Since you asked about showing shape immediately after a strong 2♣ opening: Transfer responses is an option. Usually in those schemes the 2♦ response is two-way though: either 4+♥ or a waiting bid not suitable for other responses. There are several ways to play transfers over 2♣. Here's one attempt I came up with: http://snortingmaradonas.se/erik/mysystem/twoclubs18_19.html This one has a lot of focus on finding playable part scores since 18-19 NT is included in 2♣. If your 2♣ is something like 22+ then you probably want to change some things.

Thanks for mentioning other artificial 1NT openings! My first thought was to play 1NT-2♣ as "pass or correct", but I think it might be better as an asking bid, but possibly weak. Perhaps: 1NT-2♣; 2♦ = Natural. 2♥ is pass/correct, while 2♠ could be GF relay (unfortunately a bit high*) and 2NT maybe INV relay. 2M = Natural and 5+♣. * Another option is to give up playing 2♥ here, and use 2♥ as the relay, and 2♠ as pass/correct. Now I don't know if the opening itself has merit. I've seen 1♦ played as basically the same thing, 1NT is more preemptive but leads to problems for both sides.

I haven't seen many systems using an artificial 1NT opening (I think Romex is the exception). Woolsey in his "grunt defense" to nebulous minors play a 1NT overcall as 4M and 5+m (may be the suit opened). I wonder if this could work as an opening bid? It could lead to some interesting structures like: 1C = Strong 1D = Weak NT, 4441 or 6+m. 1M = 5+M 1NT = 4M and 5+m. 2C = Minors.

I wonder if it could be worthwhile to expand the range of the 1♦ opening? The reason would be adding a weak NT opening and thus increasing the aggressiveness (not sure if it is needed though). So maybe: 1C = Strong. Includes 15-17 NT but not 18-19 NT. 1D = 11-14 NT with major, or any 18-19 NT. 1NT = 11-14 NT without major. 1D--- 1H = "Stayman". 1S = Puppet to 1NT. Weak or GF. 1NT = To play vs 11-14, GF vs 18-19. 2m = To play vs 11-14. 2H = At least 4-4 majors, NF. Letting the opponents get in at the one level when holding a 15-17 NT may not be a good idea though, and the split range of 1♦ prevents some preemptive jumps as responder.