Flem72

OK, bear with me, I grew up on weak NTs where this auction is nicely defined (usually) as 15-17 support points. When I was forced into SNT systems, I often had problems with invitational range (in my mind good 15-18 support) hands with distribution. Say, 14 HCP and a stiff. Casual partners -- even some very experienced ones -- would say, 'oh no, that's a 2M raise. You only have 14 points." Swell: \ \ \ \ / / / / \ \ \\ /// / / 0 0 7 |------/ This got to be such a problem for me that I started asking my casual SNT partners -- BTW, these would be partners you meet 30 mins before the game in order to work out a card -- what range this sequence could have, and the answers were surprisingly vague. It was almost like they were resulting before the fact: If the stronger 2M would keep them out of trouble, it was OK to use it, but if they got too high with the weaker one, it was bad. So my question is this: Do many of you SNTers, whether 2/1 or SAYC, really bid hands like this AQxx x KQx KTxxx as a 2S raise after 1m-1S? If you do, how do you handle the rest of the auction in various circumstances? I can think of a couple of structures that would seem possibly to work, but something about the wide range for the raise (12-17 support?) rubs against the grain. I guess I could insist on mini-splinters or other fairly complicated game tries with everyone I play with wherever I might find them, but then again maybe I need my outlook adjusted. Regards and Happy Trails, Scott Needham Boulder, Colorado, USA

Lately, some flame wars. But usually good stuff. SN

To the same effect, see also Eisenberg 3C and/or Meckstroth Adjunct. Regards and Happy Trails, Scott Needham Boulder, Colorado, USA

OK--2Cish opener with 5S: Isn't this hand a double (twice?) then cue kind of hand? P-P-2D-X 3D-P-P-X P-3H-P-4D? or P-P-2D-X 3D-P-P-4D P-4H-P-4S? Seriously, just trying to work this through.... Regards and Happy Trails, Scott Needham Boulder, Colorado, USA

KTxxx KJx A ATxx, which I value at 16+. Now, two questions: (1)Is this hand too weak for the actions given and (2) is there a case that with this hand, or something like KJxx KQx xx AQJx, which I take as the "purer" equivilent, the two-double auction is only lookng for a better place to play? or are you, with this kind of hand, constrained to pass 3H, having picked your poison with a minimum? It seems to me that other hands given or implied by responding posters above, like some variant of AKTxx AJx x AJTx (or stronger), would call 3S at the second turn, not the 3rd. OTOH, _must_ the two-double auction hand look like most posters seem to think it should, AKxx KQx xx AQJx, Regards and Happy Trails, Scott Needham Boulder, Colorado, USA

Both vul, pairs: P-P-2D-X 3D-P-P-X P-3H-P-3S What kind of hand do you expect from the 3S bidder? If it now goes P-? what is your call with Q9xx T9xx xxx Kx ? Regards and Happy Trails, Scott Needham Boulder, Colorado, USA

You know, I've read this thing twice, but I tended to concentrate on the competitive raise structures to the exclusion of the opening preempts stuff. Thanks for reminding me. Regards and Happy Trails, Scott Needham Boulder, Colorado, USA

I've been made aware in the last few weeks -- funny how these hands tend to manifest in clusters -- that I do not really know what I'm doing with high level preempts. I've seriously misled partners and achieved alarmingly poor results. Though I've looked around for resources, I've not found anything really convincing. So I'm asking opinions: What are exemplar 4M and 5m openers (assume no namyats) at different colors and in different seats? And if someone does know of an authoritive, take-it-to-the-bank book or other resource, hit me. Thanks in advance, Regards and Happy Trails, Scott Needham Boulder, Colorado, USA

I guess I wasn't clear earlier: Also should've asked what would be a max for the call. For me the posters with the slam exploration tools are answering my questions -- maybe the ones in my head that didn't make it into the post. :blink: 4H; double then 5H; 4m as stronger offensive hand than 4H? Since posting I've been looking around. I suppose double must be reserved for the more balanced, truer takeout hand type; consequently, I really like the idea of 4C = very good offensive hand in a M, 4D = takeout with both Ms and 4M = can't stand to pass over the preempt. This hand is beginning to look more like a 4C call than a 4H call--and maybe without the HQ, it is a 4H call. Thanks for responses. Regards and Happy Trails, Scott Needham Boulder, Colorado, USA

The biggest problem in 2/1 is that many sequences are unlimited. Major raise sequences are the most critical, whether responder (or opener) supports at the two or the three level. With the example hands offered by awm, I'd hope my partners, as opener, would bid 3S to show the SK. So with the first: 1♠-2♥ 3♥-3♠ 4♣-4♦ 6♥ and with the second 1♠-2♥ 3♥-3♠ 4♣-4♥ P Note that you don't have to be playing Serious/Frivilous to courtesy cue when partner may hae a much bigger hand than appears from the "sound" of the auction. Regards and Happy Trails, Scott Needham Boulder, Colorado, USA

Help files state that there is a "Topic Options" button at the end of each topic. I'm thinking this is how I can print an entire topic rather than having to print each page individually. Cool. But I don't see the button at the end of any topic I've scanned today. So: How do I print an entire topic? Regards and Happy Trails, Scott Needham Boulder, Colorado, USA

One very good reason for using transfers with WNTs is the game-going two suited responder's hand. Original WNT systems such as K-S did not use transfers. Nor did they use GF Stayman. Game-going two suiters had to start with a jump to the three level, so in these structures, it is very difficult adequately to describe these hands without getting way too high way too fast. Regards and Happy Trails, Scott Needham Boulder, Colorado, USA

OK, pretty quick and pretty decisive concensus. Now I want to know: Do you 4H bidders think it is close? What kind of hand would be a min for the call? How do you evaluate the risk involved in this position? is it a matter of the normal 'now or forever hold my peace' theory over preempts? would you take the same action over 3S, or 4m (not namyattish)? what about 5m? Most of us don't have much opportunity to think about high level preempts, or to act over them, and I'm looking to learn something.... Regards and Happy Trails, Scott Needham Boulder, Colorado, USA

IMPS, both red RHO opens gambling 3N as first to act. You hold: Ax AKQxxx x Kxxx What u call? Regards and Happy Trails, Scott Needham Boulder, Colorado, USA

Agree wholeheartedly--support doubles can be an issue b/c you need the "SNT double" in most competitive auctions, and you need to know when to bid NT and when to double.

I learned to play bridge from the K-S book. I am strongly biased toward WNT, especially at pairs; I have gone over to Edgar's "chicken WNT" at teams. IMHO, the gains HEAVILY outweigh the losses. To address some issues with WNT in a 2/1 context. --Don't forget that K-S is 2/1GF for all 1M-2m auctions (I like the "3 times rebid" exception). It is a short hop to full-on 2/1GF, and IME you can profitably use whatever major structures you might otherwise favor. I think it is important, however, that you adopt O's 2M rebid as "minimum, not claiming 6" so that 2N or 3X claims extras. I've never been badly dinged by that 16-17 HCP (non)problem over a 1NTF response even playing 'normal' 1NTF (I think this is why original K-S consistently treats "invitational" as 9-bad 12, rather than 10-bad 12) and Gazilli-like stuff helps immensely. --K-S minor structures are a huge improvement over 'standard' treatments; I think Norman Kay got much the better of Peter Pender in their TBW debate over the 1m-1M/3m jump rebid. That said, the 1m-1N response, showing 5-8, has always bugged me, and using 1C-1D or 1m-1M as "ALERT: could be 3 cards" will right-side this auction with almost zero downside: If partner happens to bid 2M, 15-17 support, you have likely found a very good spot. It helps to play Checkback over all NT rebids, so that 1m-1X/1M is always unbalanced. I like 1m-1H/1S and 1D-1M/2C to be forcing one round so that all jumps are min-spls to distinguish HCP from distributional raises. --1D-2C in a WNT2/1 context seems to be kind of scary for many SNT players. One solution is to play 1m-1N = 9-11, 1m-2N = 12-14 or 18-19 and 1m-3N = "picture" 15-17. Now, all balanced or semi-balanced 9-11 hands with clubs respond 1N, which means that after 1D-2C, responder holds either 12+ with 6+ (can be treated as a NT response, depending) or unbalanced 9+ HCP WITH Cs AND D SUPPORT (since R can not hold a 4-card M). --It seems neccesary to play 2D as some form of mini-Roman, which is in my view unfortunate, since I'd much rather play 2D as some form of Mexican tht includes 20-21 balanced and 2N = min 5-5 in the minors (this adds substance to 1D-1M/2C-2X/3C or 4C and distinguishes 1D-1M/3C as a 5-4). Ce la vie. --You need to be very well versed in fome form of runout over Their double of Your WNT--most SNTers would probably be surprised that I have gotten very good results if allowed to play in my 4-3, 2-level contract. I'm sure there are many other issues hanging there for those unfamiliar with WNT, but this seems to spell out the major structure tweaks. Regards and Happy Trails, Scott Needham Boulder, Colorado, USA As usual, forgot something: 1D-3C = inv, 6+ and 1D-2C can show a 5+C-4M with opening values.

My preferred sstructure would start 3C, Bergen weak raise concealing a big splinter, 13+ HCP. O's rebid tells the values tale: If 3H (min), then 4D completes the splinter description, requesting cues (unfortunate that the suit we wonder about is C: none will be forthcoming, so R will have to start with 4S hoping to hear 5C, Roman style). If 3D (inv), asking range, then 3N = D splinter. If 4H (the nuts--or a long H suit, shape), RKCB for a grand. Regards and Happy Trails, Scott Needham Boulder, Colorado, USA

None vul, E deals and passes. South: xx A KQT9xxxx Kx ? Regards and Happy Trails, Scott Needham Boulder, Colorado, USA

Jeez! it worked!

Well, I tried to employ the nice little boxed quotation thingie, but I guess I'll ahve to read up on the tools. Sigh. Anyhoo, the actual hands don't contribute much to the problem posed, (1) partner didn't have a 2C opener and (2) RHO indeed should've bounced immediately. Partner's hand was a 2N opener, and not a "cherce" (Spencer Tracey, _Pat & Mike_ I think :blink: ) one at that: AKx AJ98x KQ Axx. Even so, if partner had understood the 5D call, I would think 5H is auto. Regards and Happy Trails, Scott Needham Boulder, Colorado, USA

S: J9x KTxx x Qxxxx Vul v. not N E S W 2C* 3D P** P 3H 4D ? * = strong, 22+ or 8 1/2 tricks ** = not a double negative hand Also: Anyone want to publish useful agreements for comp over Our 2/1 2C opener? It seems to me that, most of the time, letting O know whether R is bust or holds some values is good enough, waiting for O to reopen with a descriptive call. OTOH....? Regards and Happy Trails, Scott Needham Boulder, Colorado, USA

OK, I think this structure has promise and I'd really like comment. It is a modified XYZ/Crowhurst in which (A) the 1NT opener = 12-14 and one 4-card M, and (B) the 1m opener followed by a 1NT rebid is either both Ms or none, 12-17. The overall sturcture I play insists that 1m-1X/1M is unbalanced, so concealed 4-card M or two is possible. Also, 1m-1x/1M and 1D-1M/2C are forcing, so mini-splinters and void splinters are in the mix. XYZ is on, except that R's 2C does not relay but is a range inquiry holding a good 8 (probably two As with good spots or similar) to a bad 11. So opening 1m should probably be alerted as: (a) long m, (b) balanced min, 12-14 with both Ms, or © 15-17 balanced, any distribution. Though I'm still thinking it through, it seems that one advantage is that it is easier to tell when O holds a long m with a min hand that R might want to take to 3m in a competitive seq. (The ability to play 3m is often lost with "any bal min" WNT openers.) Another, it might inhibit M overcalls. A disadvantage for true WNTers is that it reduces the frequency of the opening 1N, especially with the 5m-3-3-2 and (2)-(3)-4-4 hands, but -- I am assured -- not as much as the "1NT = no 4-card M" criteria. I suspect tht, although the structure seems playable, others may be able to convince me that none of these advantages merit the shift in structure from plain vanilla WNT. A. 1N = 12-14 bal with one 4-card M. Traditional structures, whatever you like. (I like either 4-suit transfers or forcing, non-forcing Stayman b/c my K-S self noticed that good 5-5s are hard to describe without one or the other.) B. 1m then 1NT rebid = 12-17; if 12-14, then either both Ms or neither. 1m-1M/2M = 15-17 support points, bal, 4 cards. 1m-1M/1N-2C = Range inquiry, 8-11: all 2-level responses except 2N are 12-14, and 2N and higher are 15-17. After any 2-level response, R places the contract. 1m-1M/1N-2C/? 2D = min, not 3M -- therefore no 4-card M -- probably 5 C if m = C, if m = D, then either 5 D or 4-4 minors. 2H = min, 3 cards in M, therefore either 3M-5m-2-3 or 3M-4m-4om-2OM 2S = min, 4 cards for M. 2N = 15-17 bal, not 3M not 4OM, so probably 5 C,5 D or 4-4 minors. 3C = 15-17 bal, 3M, not 4OM 3D = 15-17 bal, 3M, 4OM 3H = 15-17 bal, not 3M, 4OM, 15-16 3S = 15-17 bal, not 3M, 4OM, 16-17 Caveat: Just b/c the structure looks consistent and workable doesn't mean it has any clear advantages over vanilla WNT--and I'm particularly interested in comment along those lines. Thanks, Regards and Happy Trails, Scott Needham Boulder, Colorado, USA

I have an example auction. Take this:

What system are you trying to crowbar this into ? 5-card M, WNT, basically 2/1 with K-S minor structures (and maybe K-S 1S-2H). I had thought that it might make competitive situations less clear to opps, and create more doubled contracts for us to defend; I've been parsing competitive scenarios, but to little effect. It has occurred to me that it makes little sense to have the 1NT opener be majorless--then what does 1m-1M/2M mean? Also, as pointed out on r.g.b, that requirement gets rid of A LOT of balanced mins, so you'd be opening 1WNT much less often--a bad thing. So I'm interested in what you may have come up with, but I'm losing faith that it'd work. Regards and Happy Trails, Scott Needham Boulder, Colorado, USA

Folk: I like weak NTs. Lately I've been toying with the idea of: 1N = 12-14, no 4-card M 1m, then rebid 1N = 12-17. If 12-14, then at least one 4-card M; if 15-17, any. After the 1m open/1N rebid, 2C = range Stayman--more likely range checkback. The problem would seem to be the good 8 to 11 HCP responding hands, specifically the 8-9s--this structure could force Us into 4-2 2-level fits (Garbage Stayman risk also) or 2N with 12 opposite 8-9 (not horrible) or commit Us to 3N with 15 opposite 8 or bad 9. This may be a matter of deciding what is a good 8-bad 9. Anyone know of anything similar I could study? Regards and Happy Trails, Scott Needham Boulder, Colorado, USA