Yu18772

I am with JLOGIC, although some people play it natural by agreement if the opener may be 3 or less in the minor.

The balance of points doesn't mean they are going down, it gives you a better chance, the more points you have the better your chances get. Thats not a good enough reason by itself. It has to be that in the long run your X brings more points than it looses. However, the closer your point range to 20-20 the larger the role of the distribution an the lesser of your points. Also, distributional partner could open subminimal hand and I see no reason to hang him for that. Although considerations of wether the double is "worth it" in IMP and MP is different, but in general I think that in competition if we pushed them one level above what they were content to play we will get a good result if they go down anyway, but we may make the bad result much worse (if they make). Here is a very crude example of 2 calculations for IMP and MP: IMP Lets say we bid 4♥ and they sac at 5♣ going on average 2 down, all NV, but we don't have 5♥. Now I need to minimize the loss - If I don't double I lost 320, if I do I lost 120, I stand to gain ~200 from the X. If they make I loose additional 150 because of the double. Thus as long as the odds at least are ~40% or more that they go down I am fine doubling in the long run. Given the point balance (~25-15 or better) I would expect them to be down more than 40% of the time in a sac, sometimes only -1 but also sometimes -5. Now if we do the same calculation for invitational hands where the point distribution is closer to 20-20, and thus they are more likely to make or not to go as much down. For example - in the given auction (assuming 4♦ even makes) -we had 130, they went to 4♥ that is potentially -1. My gain if they go down is a 50/100, my loss if they make is 150, I need 66% chances if they vul or 75% if they non vul to make it worth doubling - thus I double in these auctions only if I think we are in that type of % range, which means only if I have a good reason. If they are in 4 of a minor it is even worse because you stand to loose 380-580 (pending vulnerability) form the X if they make, and gain only 50-100 if they dont. So forcing to bid or double in these situations makes less sense in the long run. MP In MP the situation is a even more complex, and it depends very much on what you think is going on at the other tables. Shortly - in the game-sac situation double may be your only way to get anything but bottom, so your potential loss from the double is minimal and potential gain is maximal (assuming your game makes, and that at most other tables your side will be playing there). In the 20-20 situation, in Adam's example: - if the field is in 3♦ making 4 - x converts bottom to top if 4♥ is -2 (NV) or -1 (Vul), if they are -1(NV) or better you get a bottom anyway, then it might be right to try 5♦, but in any case this looks like they got you. - if the field is likely to be in 4♦ which goes down, or let your ops play 3♥ that makes - then a plus score (4♥ down) will be top, and a minus (4♥ making) will be a bottom - doubled or not. In this case you dont gain from the double, but it may potentially let them find otherwise unlikely winning play.....and convert your top to bottom. So again - this seems to be too variable situation to force bidding.

I play here pass is forcing, x penalty and suit is self sufficient setting trump (4♦ is very strong 2-suiter, but we prefer not to open 2 suited hands with 2♣, so this really shows a monster hand). Essentially if opener bids 3♥ we are playing the same as if the uninterrupted auction went 2♣-2♦-3♥. A suit by responder after my pass does not show extra values or good suit, but does show at least 5 cards (otherwise dbl), 3NT would show at least AQx or KJTx.

Totally agree on the 2♣ rebid, and the auction suggested by TWO4BRIDGE makes a lot of sense. Another thing I would say - I wouldn't think that 4♥ is a slam try in this position, you could bid 4♣ for that. For me (and I might be wrong) it would show some very distributional hand (6-2-5-0? or something like it) that really doesn't want to play NT for whatever reason.

hmm...I am kind of familiar with what happened next - http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif, but you see - you were right.

I don't know if its good, but in general approach we like to keep the penalty option when they decide to interfere in our GF, and we are playing the major not NT. So x - suggests to punish (have tricks in op suit), pass is forcing, shows nothing special (let the partner dbl if he wants to), or bid something else to invite or bid our game (sign off). anything else is extra with suit (3level) or shortage (4level) - if we are in hearts jump to 4♥ shows short spade. 3 of our suit is 17+ slam oriented (strongly asks partner to start q, but with bad hand partner can still make unserious bid). 3NT shows 15-17 no shortages. Jump to 5trump asks to bid 6 with 1st round control in their suit.

I think 4♦ usually shows 5-5 or better - with south hand I would support ♥ over 4♦...http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif

I think it mainly depends on partnership understandings and style. In my case I would pass, not because I think that it is not worth it, but my partner would expect just a bit better, and she will compete accordingly - which usually ends in -50 instead of +50. If we were NV vs V she would have lower expectations and I would X freely. If partner doesn't have competitive values it will only help the ops.

For all those that bid ♥ - let me ask you: holding ♠ KQxx, ♥KJxxx, ♦x, ♣Kxx you and RHO opened ♦, you double or bid hearts? The purpose is not to show 5 cards, the purpose is to find a fit and see if we can compete, in any suit.... especially holding both majors. So on this hand you have support for both, and effectively you have 10 HCP - seems an obvious X to me.

My 50% finesse is off 9 out of 10 times.....

tnx for replies - just for the record I passed, we scored 200 (sub optimal declarer play). Pard had xxxx, Kxxxx, x, Axx.......http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif dummy had Q♣ and 9x♦.

Vul agains NV playing at an average club level, IMP, LHO opened 1♦ which was passed to you. ♠AKQ2 ♥Q ♦AJT872 ♣97 Your bid?

I think:1NT 1♠ 3NT/x by North. If double - pass the second round. If North dbls twice South should bid 4♠.

It depends on partnership agreement - how much extra do you need to bid having both majors hand, when partner paseed 1level opening. if it doesn't promise extra - your 4♥ is too optimistic, if it does your partner should have passed.

Yes you have 16 points, but...your heart stopper is a single one, your single is in ♠ and its a K and your partner has just game forced - 2NT gives you much more bidding space and NT is not necessarily the spot. If your partner rebids 3♠ you would love to start q-bidding.....If partner bids 3NT on 2NT - I do not have enough to reopen. If partner bids 3♦, 3♣ etc I will be happy to accept invit.http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif

Tx. I typically play minor 3+, but this is interesting :)

Generally - what JLOGIC said. 3♦ may be a lot of hands but the first and default interpretation is asking for further description without ♦ stopper. It may be looking if opener has doubleton hearts or just looking for the right game spot. 3NT showed stopper in ♦ and at most single heart. (with 2 hearts opener would first show doubleton hearts), so North should bid 3♥, but South should bid 3♠ over 3♦ (no extra values). 4♣ over 3NT shows 4 clubs, probably 6 not so good hearts single diamond. Was looking for doubleton hearts, but if not would rather play ♣, may slam is still possible.

NV this resembles 2♦ opening much more than 1♦, especially with a diamond more and an Ace less...... the original hand you posted does not resemble any opening at any vul to me. I think that opening 3rd hands very light (and I mean 3♣ with ♠xxx,♥xxx,♦x,♣Q9xxxx light) is useful only if you think that the 4th hand has at least 2NT or better, which means you have 2-3 points and a long suit enough to preempt, and think ops wont catch you or if they do they miss slam. Otherwise open if you have some competitive values - 10+ points and suit, at worst 9 points and 5:4 in majors (and by agreement with partner). http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif

I am not sure how 2/1 is relevant here, but.... My agreement is that 2♣ is any distribution with 22/23+ HCP or 17+ HCP with 8.5 top playing tricks and ONE self sufficient suit. From that point of view this is a really minimal hand for the second option, and then I will have to hide my 5 card other major - doesn't look particularly attractive. In general 2♣ takes quite a lot of bidding space, so I don't like to open 2♣ on a hand where i foresee problems with hand description opposite weak partner - e.g. here if my majors were reversed I would maybe open 2♣, bid ♠ and then bid ♥ twice, but I am not going to be able to do it with the suits as is, and with your bidding agreements. So from my point of view - openning 2♣ forces me to misbid opposite the hand I most fear - misfit garbage. Also opposite that type of hand I will end up forcing game, go down when opponents dont have anything in terms of game etc.... On the other hand opening 1♥, rebidding 2♠ will describe my hand perfectly....and gives enough space for opponents to come into the auction, possibly punishing them. If opponents find a minor fit, my suits are still higher, but may be partner will dbl them for a number? So the only problem I can see with this plan if you are worried that 1♥ will be passed around, which happens very rarely and usually would mean that partner has no fit for any major (otherwise opponents tend to balance). Once in a while I may write +200 on a score sheet......happened to me once in 5 years. The number of times I opened 1♥ was passed and was glad to play there was more :)

Without agreements I would take dbl as penalty. By default I usually play the same system over 2NT as over 1NT (with adjustment to hand requirements) http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

I didnt see that before http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif - how does the typical auction go - 1♦-2♦ 2♥/♠ shows 4? Is 2♦ gf?

1♦ -1♠ 2♣-2♥ 2NT-4NT 6NT 1♦-1♠ 2♣-2♥ 3NT-4♦ (*) 4♥-4NT (**) 5♥(***)-6♦/NT (depends on scoring system and your personal preference) * - we are on our way to slam, I have 4 diamonds start cue bidding **- Key cards ** 2 without the queen (with 6 diamonds partner would answer as if he has the queen, because of 10 card fit) Also many other auctions are possible (as posted above), and any combination of these two. I dont think that one should reach 7, where you need to guess finesse or 2:2 ♦. The important bid is 2♥ / 4♦ - something that would show slam interest. 3NT in this position by North is usually 12-14 with flat hand and something like AQx in ♥.

Slam bellow 50% is not a bargain - if you bid 4 and make 6 you loose 530, and if you bid 6 and go -1, you loose 500.....so considering that not all the field will be in slam even if it makes you are about even either way on 50%. Had you simply bid 6S over 4D on KJTxx in spades you would be accused of far worsehttp://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif. West needs exactly one of 2 possible maximal holdings from the partner to make the slam sound: AQ♠+A♦ or A♠AK♦ (with both of which partner would cooperate to go to slam after making a limit bid). Do you think that these are the only holdings East is allowed to cuebid his A♦ with? Wouldn't you cue bid with xxx,xx,Axxx,AQJx or or Qxx,xx,Axx, KQxxx or Qxxx,xx,Axxx,KJx? - so no West can't conclude that slam is sound just because partner cuebid ♦. 3NT unserious (if you play it) would be a good way to see if partner has ♣ control. To make slam sound you need E's 10-11 points to take the exact form of 3 out 4 cards: AQ♠,and AK♦. Q♥ is not a great card either. In terms of oversimplified stat - he has 11 points (4 is A♦), the other 7 come from AQ♠ K♦. Q♥ AKQ♣. There are 4 cards that if he holds any one of them slam is bad, and 3 that if he holds 2 of them will produce slam. The latter is less likely. In less simlified stat there are 21 possible combinations of 2 honors except A♦ in E hand, 3 of them are good for you the other 18 are not, opposite some of them you might not make 5. If partner holds AQ♠ and A♦ and signed off- blame him. If the purpose is "to find the good slams as well as to stay out of the bad" - cue bidding is a good way to do it as long as you anticipate that your partner may not have what you want and trust his signoffs. If you invited to slam twice, and he signed off twice, and you went to slam anyway, that means you never meant to ask. In this case you might be better off bidding 5♠ on 4♦ (in my agreements it would ask to bid 6 holding two honors in trump, in uninterrupted auction) - but personally, I would pass 4♠.http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif

2♠, but judging by the title you prefer something else?

Partner also doesn't overcall on x, Kxx, KQxxx, Qxx....so what gnasher said.